Q re: the wisdom behind FERPA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you’re more of a helicopter parent than you realize. I’m guessing you’re paying for all or most of college and that’s why you feel entitled?

I graduated from college in the mid-aughts, and I was a true adult. I paid my own tuition and rent with money I made working (attended a very cheap in-state, probably one of the last places in America where this is still possible without major loans or grants). Nothing about college was any of my parents’ business and they certainly had no entitlement to information from the school.

Maybe instead of worrying so much about the fact that FERPA recognizes that your children are adults, you should worry more about the fact that you do not.

And I get it. Since you have the wealth to pay for college, the system puts you in this role of still being “daddy” for check-writing purposes. But if your wealth has, to date, emotionally stunted your children to the point that you really do not believe they are independent and autonomous adults (clearly happens, see the threads about college freshman who don’t even have their own checking accounts) maybe you should ask them to take a gap year and come back when they are truly adults.

I don't think you learned much in college. You don't seem to realize that the chip on your shoulder is blocking your view of most kids' college experiences. Most kids have parental help paying for college expenses. It is not unreasonable for a parent to want information about the outcomes related to those expenses. My parents paid 100% of my tuition, room and board, expenses and spending money while I was in college. Of course I would not begrudge them the ability to know how I was doing with that support. When you mature perhaps you'll understand more about things like this.

NP. Absolutely no laws, federal or otherwise, prohibit the student from agreeing to share with you any information. And there are provisions for specifically waiving FERPA, if they agree.

You just can't demand this without the student assenting. Talk to the student. Set up your own relationship -- negotiate it. There is no restriction against it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This, like so many laws, originally had a reasonable, limited, policy goal, and has morphed over time, through a combination of the law of unintended consequences and expansive reading by the colleges.

I’m sure the college administrators originally started out interpreting the law more narrowly, and then the lawyers became more cautious. At some point along the way, it occurred to the colleges that this was a wonderful mechanism for avoiding accountability on the part of the school to parents and/or avoiding liability for not keeping parents informed about what’s going on with their children. It’s clear from the “professor” posting here. Heaven forbid they actually have to be responsive to the people paying the bills.

And, yes, if your kid isn’t able to handle the college experience, you can refuse to pay for it. The problem is that, due to FERPA, you have no way of knowing that is the case until the train is completely off the tracks. You’ve wasted your $$, & the kid has ruined their record.

No, you do have ways of knowing. You can ask the student, and if you don't trust them (or don't want to take the chance), you don't pay unless they sign the waiver. Done.

How does that not work?

[Anonymous]

Parents can still access their children's academic information, and they can still access their children's medical information. They just can't do it behind the children's backs or without their prior consent.

You have to have the conversation with them, and they have to agree to the terms of waiving it. If they don't, you can refuse to pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The annoyance comes from the fact that everyone acts like kids turn into adults at midnight the day they turn 18. They don't.

Oh yes they do. Legally speaking.

Also, some of us prime our kids for being relatively adult like at 18, while many of you expect them to learn to be adults after and stifle that by holding on too tightly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

DP. Agreed. Who pays (or is expected to pay) and who has access to information are two separate issues. Again, you can insist on having a FERPA waiver on file before you either pay or fill out a FAFSA. Nothing prohibits you from making that explicit agreement with the student, if it is important to you.

That being said, as a separate issue, the "Unsubsidized Stafford Loans without Parental Information" Section 479A(a) of the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended by section 472(a)(4) of the Higher Education Opportunity Act of 2008, enables students to get unsubsidized Stafford loans if the financial aid officer “verifies that the parent or parents of such student have ended financial support of such student and refuse to file such form.” It's NOT A GREAT OPTION, but it does exist.

[Anonymous]

PS: Re "Nothing prohibits you from making that explicit agreement with the student, if it is important to you" -- and this is why colleges and universities are harping on the point during orientation. They are not hiding the restrictions they work under. How you want to handle that is up to you and the student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PS: Re "Nothing prohibits you from making that explicit agreement with the student, if it is important to you" -- and this is why colleges and universities are harping on the point during orientation. They are not hiding the restrictions they work under. How you want to handle that is up to you and the student.

ARE they harping on it? Where the parents can hear? DC hasn’t gone through orientation yet, but there seem to be a significant number of parents who don’t know this, until it’s too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS: Re "Nothing prohibits you from making that explicit agreement with the student, if it is important to you" -- and this is why colleges and universities are harping on the point during orientation. They are not hiding the restrictions they work under. How you want to handle that is up to you and the student.

ARE they harping on it? Where the parents can hear? DC hasn’t gone through orientation yet, but there seem to be a significant number of parents who don’t know this, until it’s too late.

You might try rereading the OP's first post. Second sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

DP.
1. Negotiate with your child to waive FERPA, or
2. Deal with the university following the federal law, as they are required, or
3. Student has option of unsubsidized federal loans.

There are options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professor here. No, you should not be choosing your child's courses, checking their grades or telling them what to major in. You don't need to know that your daughter is taking comparative religion or queer studies as she works out her own adult value system if you will feel compelled to block these efforts. And no you shouldn't be "advocating" for your child to have a do over on the final or insisting they didn't plagiarize when they did. The dad who was so insistent that the paper wasn't plagiarized appeared to have written it himself!

OP here. You make completely legitimate points, and I greatly appreciate you weighing in.

I guess when I learned about FERPA, I wasn't thinking about trying to intervene in course selection or grades. It just seems like some kids are not 100 percent mature at age 18, and may still need a bit of coaching/scaffolding from a parent.

But some other person mentioned that there is a waiver. I'll ask my son about it, in case he's willing. I think he trusts us that we're not going to interfere with his college experience.

Yep, professor is right. Not about parents support kids...like most have said there is a waiver, and it's easy to get it signed. The issue is parents not only doing all the things PP pointed out, but also parents calling or emailing, impersonating the student to register them, select their classes for them etc. Not only are they wanting input, they are treating their 18/19 and even grad students like children. The point is to get kids to become less dependent on parents and still make good choices...with all the resources good unis give them. BUT...you would be shocked how many parents are doing these things still for kids at 22 and older....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS: Re "Nothing prohibits you from making that explicit agreement with the student, if it is important to you" -- and this is why colleges and universities are harping on the point during orientation. They are not hiding the restrictions they work under. How you want to handle that is up to you and the student.

ARE they harping on it? Where the parents can hear? DC hasn’t gone through orientation yet, but there seem to be a significant number of parents who don’t know this, until it’s too late.

Read what the universities share with parents...it's pretty clear as we have already gone through this process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have a son starting college in the fall (large state flagship).

At all the parent orientation sessions this summer, the university staff repeatedly emphasize FERPA again and again. It's as if they live in fear of getting in trouble for violating this statute. I'm new to learning about this statute, but it seems extreme in protecting the privacy of the student. I'm definitely not a helicopter dad in any way, but this law seems kind of like overkill.

As a jaded lawyer, I am kind of asking myself why this statute exists, if the university staff acknowledge that it's not ideal to have such a strict law that only makes the parents aware of things if they are really really bad.

What prompted the enactment of this statute in the first place? And have universities ever questioned the law (and tried to lobby Congress to change it), or do they just live in fear of violating it?

Our laws should have legitimate purposes, and if not, we should try to amend them.

The colleges don't have a choice: they lose funding if they don't follow the law, so I give them kudos for pointing it out (also have a rising child starting a state flagship school in summer orientation: they did a great job of making this clear and what parents could do...ie get child to sign waiver...before starting).

Spouse and I were talking about this: 18 year olds *are* legally adults. Drive drunk, pay the penalty as an adult. Rape? Adult. Smoke pot? Still an issue on federally funded campuses and pay the price. They ARE legal adults. Forget whether you are paying or not, conversation should be between you and your adult ds/dd to keep this communication open.