Q re: the wisdom behind FERPA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This, like so many laws, originally had a reasonable, limited, policy goal, and has morphed over time, through a combination of the law of unintended consequences and expansive reading by the colleges.

I’m sure the college administrators originally started out interpreting the law more narrowly, and then the lawyers became more cautious. At some point along the way, it occurred to the colleges that this was a wonderful mechanism for avoiding accountability on the part of the school to parents and/or avoiding liability for not keeping parents informed about what’s going on with their children. It’s clear from the “professor” posting here. Heaven forbid they actually have to be responsive to the people paying the bills.

And, yes, if your kid isn’t able to handle the college experience, you can refuse to pay for it. The problem is that, due to FERPA, you have no way of knowing that is the case until the train is completely off the tracks. You’ve wasted your $$, & the kid has ruined their record.

You're paying, have them sign the waiver. There is a solution. It's not anyone else's problem that despite paying $$$ for their education you can't get them to do something as simple as signing the waiver.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I think you’re more of a helicopter parent than you realize. I’m guessing you’re paying for all or most of college and that’s why you feel entitled?

I graduated from college in the mid-aughts, and I was a true adult. I paid my own tuition and rent with money I made working (attended a very cheap in-state, probably one of the last places in America where this is still possible without major loans or grants). Nothing about college was any of my parents’ business and they certainly had no entitlement to information from the school.

Maybe instead of worrying so much about the fact that FERPA recognizes that your children are adults, you should worry more about the fact that you do not.

And I get it. Since you have the wealth to pay for college, the system puts you in this role of still being “daddy” for check-writing purposes. But if your wealth has, to date, emotionally stunted your children to the point that you really do not believe they are independent and autonomous adults (clearly happens, see the threads about college freshman who don’t even have their own checking accounts) maybe you should ask them to take a gap year and come back when they are truly adults.

I don't think you learned much in college. You don't seem to realize that the chip on your shoulder is blocking your view of most kids' college experiences. Most kids have parental help paying for college expenses. It is not unreasonable for a parent to want information about the outcomes related to those expenses. My parents paid 100% of my tuition, room and board, expenses and spending money while I was in college. Of course I would not begrudge them the ability to know how I was doing with that support. When you mature perhaps you'll understand more about things like this.

I don’t have a chip on my shoulder at all, why would I have a chip about being a true adult when I was, in fact, an adult?

And of course “most kids” do not have rich parents bankrolling the college experience for them. That’s your DCUM bubble.

Weird. We have 5 kids who have just graduated college or are in college now. Of the hundreds of people those 5 kids are friends with I cannot think of a single one who isn't getting some sort of financial assistance from their parents. That isn't a DCUM bubble, it is a fact.

It is more normative for a child to have parental financial support paying for college than it is to be fully responsible for the payment oneself. According to Sallie Mae only 34% of students borrow money, and that borrowed money accounts for only 13% of their total expenditures. In other words, the child paying 100% of college expenses him/herself is the outlier.

Please do yourself and the rest of us a world of good by educating yourself before you post. When you post such foolishness you make yourself look bad and you bring down the rest of us with you.

You realize that kids without rich parents get aid right

Jesus you don’t even understand what the data you’re citing to means and then you tell me to educate me

Sweetie, stay on track. You were saying that "most kids" don't get financial support for college from their parents. I disputed that and used a citation from Sallie Mae. You're beaten and now you're off on another tack because you don't want to give up. That's okay. You're immature and ignorant. Stay that way. We don't need you around at all. I am sure you hear that all the time. Bye bye.

DP. The pp you're responding to isn't the one who sounds immature. You are up in arms about a problem with a simple solution. You clearly are not mature enough to discuss this issue with your child and find a mutually agreeable solution. Throwing a tantrum here about the law when there is such an easy solution is not a good look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this crap was fine when college cost 500 bucks a semester but very few teens are coughing up 100% of $15,000 to $40,000 cash a semester without parental help.

It's bullsh**.

I just posted this in another thread, our son ended up failing out of university. We'd find out many months later the warns signs were VERY obvious to the university. He was not attending class, he was caught with booze in his room by campus police, he was even fired from his campus job! We knew none of this while they continued to cash our $15,000 checks each semester!

Lesson learned. Make your child sign the disclosure release right after they're admitted as a 12th grader. They'll have no idea what they're signing, so just have them do it and act like it's normal. The university does not care about you, they only care about cashing your checks and freezing you out of your child's life.

+1000 This!

This anecdote happens more often that you'd think. And for the "professors" and college admin "shills" posting here defending "this crap", you're hiding behind an archaic law in a bid to preserve revenue and help your job security, but with no accountability whatsoever. That's isn't the real-world and especially not at current costs, find a different line of work. No one cares about 'pizza parlor basement' politics or student-parent communication when it comes to this. In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

If you want your kid to prove they are worthy of your investment, then you can insist that they waive FERPA, or make your tuition money contingent on access to their online portal, etc. That is an agreement you have with your child. If your child refuses, then you can refuse to pay. They can find another way to finance college or not go.

This is really not rocket science.

But is it really that easy? How many parents understand this before it’s too late? If it’s the kid filling out the forms, will the parent even see it? Do the colleges reach out to the parents themselves to clarify that they have no right to information unless FERPA is waived?

Clearly they emphasize this as this is what caused OP to start this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

DP. Of course it does! The college cartel wants to have the cake and eat it too. That IS the point. Why not treat all students as independent for all purposes?.. you know.. FERPA. But no. They want to make sure parents are responsible for paying for college AND want to make those same parents jump through hoops to get basic information. All while paying zero taxes and most of the senior staff enjoying 2-4 hours of productive work each day, high salaries relative to their peers in industry, and fantastic job security.

You do know that colleges don't write laws, right Complain to your congress person and ask them to change the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

DP. Of course it does! The college cartel wants to have the cake and eat it too. That IS the point. Why not treat all students as independent for all purposes?.. you know.. FERPA. But no. They want to make sure parents are responsible for paying for college AND want to make those same parents jump through hoops to get basic information. All while paying zero taxes and most of the senior staff enjoying 2-4 hours of productive work each day, high salaries relative to their peers in industry, and fantastic job security.

You do know that colleges don't write laws, right Complain to your congress person and ask them to change the law.

This is exactly correct. Colleges and universities were sent explicit advice from the US Department of Education that they could not consider a student independent MERELY on the grounds that the parents refuse to give information about taxes for the FAFSA. There are specific criteria that have to be met, apart from unwillingness of the parents.

If you don't likely that, lobby to change the federal laws and regulations. Don't blame higher ed institutions for following the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

OK, explain to me how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law, please.

And you don't understand what "check your privilege" means. It's the exact opposite of your use here. I was admitting I have it good and have an advantage. My privilege is already checked, and admitted to in full disclosure.

You're kinda missing the targets bigtime here. Maybe this discussion isn't for you. If you want to stop, that's fine with me, you needed mea culpa or anything like that. But if you keep posting, I will keep asking how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law.

You’ve missed the point. Your privilege means that you have the luxury of being ignorant regarding how FAFSA defines “independence” and you think it’s worth boasting about. I hope the following explains it in small enough words that you’ll be able to understand. As you’ll see, FAFSA effectively makes any undergraduate student under the age of 24 who does not fall under certain specified exemptions (which is most of them) legally a dependent for purposes of college tuition. The conflict here is that FAFSA makes students dependents for financial purposes, but FERPA makes them “adults” for purposes of any information related to how that money is actually being spent.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-05-02/declare-yourself-independent-for-college-financial-aid

A student can't simply choose to file as an independent on the FAFSA, the application that most schools use to determine financial aid awards. For the most part, the FAFSA relies on parental information unless the student is applying for graduate school.

"Once you're a graduate student you are considered independent for federal financial aid," says Kathy Ruby, a principal in financial aid optimization at consulting firm EAB.

However, applicants to undergraduate programs who are under the age of 24 by Dec. 31 of the award year typically are considered dependent and must go through a complicated process to prove independence for financial assistance.

What Is an Independent Student?

An independent student is one who meets certain legal requirements to receive federal financial aid to pay for college based on the student's ability to pay. A dependent student's ability to pay is determined by reviewing information provided by both the student and one or both parents.

By law, to be considered independent on the FAFSA without meeting the age requirement, an associate or bachelor's student must be at least one of the following: married; a U.S. veteran; in active duty military service other than training purposes; an emancipated minor; a recently homeless youth or self-supporting and at risk for homelessness; a parent who provides more than half of the financial support for a child who lives with him or her; or someone who has been in foster care, been an orphan or a dependent or ward of the court for any period of time after the age of 13.

Someone posted that an 18-year old was a "child". I replied: "An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job."

Please explain to me how FAFSA invalidates that and then I will address the rest of your stuff.

FAFSA invalidates that for purposes of payment for college. Which is what we’re discussing here. See above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this crap was fine when college cost 500 bucks a semester but very few teens are coughing up 100% of $15,000 to $40,000 cash a semester without parental help.

It's bullsh**.

I just posted this in another thread, our son ended up failing out of university. We'd find out many months later the warns signs were VERY obvious to the university. He was not attending class, he was caught with booze in his room by campus police, he was even fired from his campus job! We knew none of this while they continued to cash our $15,000 checks each semester!

Lesson learned. Make your child sign the disclosure release right after they're admitted as a 12th grader. They'll have no idea what they're signing, so just have them do it and act like it's normal. The university does not care about you, they only care about cashing your checks and freezing you out of your child's life.

+1000 This!

This anecdote happens more often that you'd think. And for the "professors" and college admin "shills" posting here defending "this crap", you're hiding behind an archaic law in a bid to preserve revenue and help your job security, but with no accountability whatsoever. That's isn't the real-world and especially not at current costs, find a different line of work. No one cares about 'pizza parlor basement' politics or student-parent communication when it comes to this. In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

If you want your kid to prove they are worthy of your investment, then you can insist that they waive FERPA, or make your tuition money contingent on access to their online portal, etc. That is an agreement you have with your child. If your child refuses, then you can refuse to pay. They can find another way to finance college or not go.

This is really not rocket science.

But is it really that easy? How many parents understand this before it’s too late? If it’s the kid filling out the forms, will the parent even see it? Do the colleges reach out to the parents themselves to clarify that they have no right to information unless FERPA is waived?

Clearly they emphasize this as this is what caused OP to start this thread.

But it sounds as if they are just preparing parents for the fact that they won’t tell parents anything, not telling them how to get around it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

DP. Of course it does! The college cartel wants to have the cake and eat it too. That IS the point. Why not treat all students as independent for all purposes?.. you know.. FERPA. But no. They want to make sure parents are responsible for paying for college AND want to make those same parents jump through hoops to get basic information. All while paying zero taxes and most of the senior staff enjoying 2-4 hours of productive work each day, high salaries relative to their peers in industry, and fantastic job security.

I'll say it again -- money doesn't buy away rights. They are not attached to each other.

If you pay another adult's medical bills, even if they are your dependent on tax forms, that does not mean you get the right to view their medical information without consent. That's not the doctor's office's "having their cake and eating it too" -- that's just how rights work in this country.

But paying someone’s medical bills, if you have no other rights, is just a gift. However, if I am paying someone’s bills because they are not independent and I have a medical power of attorney, then I do get to see medical information. By saying college students are deemed to not be financially independent, FAFSA makes college the equivalent of having a medical power of attorney that makes you responsible for paying the bills but which doesn’t let you know anything about the underlying treatment. Students are simultaneously deemed to not be adults for purposes of paying for college, but adults for purposes of information about college. And that’s the rub.

Whether or not colleges are correct in interpreting FERPA as strictly as they do, pp’s are correct that the answer is a change in law — which is what OP started this thread by suggesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

DP. Of course it does! The college cartel wants to have the cake and eat it too. That IS the point. Why not treat all students as independent for all purposes?.. you know.. FERPA. But no. They want to make sure parents are responsible for paying for college AND want to make those same parents jump through hoops to get basic information. All while paying zero taxes and most of the senior staff enjoying 2-4 hours of productive work each day, high salaries relative to their peers in industry, and fantastic job security.

I'll say it again -- money doesn't buy away rights. They are not attached to each other.

If you pay another adult's medical bills, even if they are your dependent on tax forms, that does not mean you get the right to view their medical information without consent. That's not the doctor's office's "having their cake and eating it too" -- that's just how rights work in this country.

But paying someone’s medical bills, if you have no other rights, is just a gift. However, if I am paying someone’s bills because they are not independent and I have a medical power of attorney [1], then I do get to see medical information. By saying college students are deemed to not be financially independent, FAFSA makes college the equivalent of having a medical power of attorney that makes you responsible for paying the bills but which doesn’t let you know anything about the underlying treatment. Students are simultaneously deemed to not be adults for purposes of paying for college, but adults for purposes of information about college. And that’s the rub.

Whether or not colleges are correct in interpreting FERPA as strictly as they do, pp’s are correct that the answer is a change in law — which is what OP started this thread by suggesting.

[1] Yes, paying the bill and setting up the medical power of attorney are SEPARATE THINGS, and POA is set up separately. You can be the person who pays the bill without being the person designated with the medical POA. That can be someone else. The former does not secure you the latter -- it is a different process.

[2] No. Paying a bill does not give you medical POA. You have to have a conversation and negotiate the signing away of rights. Same for getting someone to sign away FERPA.

---

Just saying that "FAFSA invalidates it" does not make it true. Paying a bill does not guarantee someone's rights are waived in your favor. Sorry.

And, for something like the fifth time in this thread, parent contribution (even just of information) is not the only way the student can go to university. There are unsubsidized federal loans that can be applied for even without FAFSA, or the university can work out a work-study arrangement with the student, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

OK, explain to me how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law, please.

And you don't understand what "check your privilege" means. It's the exact opposite of your use here. I was admitting I have it good and have an advantage. My privilege is already checked, and admitted to in full disclosure.

You're kinda missing the targets bigtime here. Maybe this discussion isn't for you. If you want to stop, that's fine with me, you needed mea culpa or anything like that. But if you keep posting, I will keep asking how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law.

You’ve missed the point. Your privilege means that you have the luxury of being ignorant regarding how FAFSA defines “independence” and you think it’s worth boasting about. I hope the following explains it in small enough words that you’ll be able to understand. As you’ll see, FAFSA effectively makes any undergraduate student under the age of 24 who does not fall under certain specified exemptions (which is most of them) legally a dependent for purposes of college tuition. The conflict here is that FAFSA makes students dependents for financial purposes, but FERPA makes them “adults” for purposes of any information related to how that money is actually being spent.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-05-02/declare-yourself-independent-for-college-financial-aid

A student can't simply choose to file as an independent on the FAFSA, the application that most schools use to determine financial aid awards. For the most part, the FAFSA relies on parental information unless the student is applying for graduate school.

"Once you're a graduate student you are considered independent for federal financial aid," says Kathy Ruby, a principal in financial aid optimization at consulting firm EAB.

However, applicants to undergraduate programs who are under the age of 24 by Dec. 31 of the award year typically are considered dependent and must go through a complicated process to prove independence for financial assistance.

What Is an Independent Student?

An independent student is one who meets certain legal requirements to receive federal financial aid to pay for college based on the student's ability to pay. A dependent student's ability to pay is determined by reviewing information provided by both the student and one or both parents.

By law, to be considered independent on the FAFSA without meeting the age requirement, an associate or bachelor's student must be at least one of the following: married; a U.S. veteran; in active duty military service other than training purposes; an emancipated minor; a recently homeless youth or self-supporting and at risk for homelessness; a parent who provides more than half of the financial support for a child who lives with him or her; or someone who has been in foster care, been an orphan or a dependent or ward of the court for any period of time after the age of 13.

Someone posted that an 18-year old was a "child". I replied: "An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job."

Please explain to me how FAFSA invalidates that and then I will address the rest of your stuff.

FAFSA invalidates that for purposes of payment for college. Which is what we’re discussing here. See above.

Sigh... sorry you clearly know the answer is "it doesn't" but you are being obstinate. I am done with you.

[Anonymous]

The problem with "I pay the bills. Therefore I am the one buying the degree and I should pick it out" is that you are paying for someone's admission to an establishment, not buying someone"s degree. If I bought you a ticket to a theme park, what kind of experience you had would still be up to you. You could go on all the rides, or eat all the junk food or just sit on a bench. it would ultimately be your choice. At college, you are paying for that person to have the opportunity to enroll in classes, attend lectures,join clubs, establish relationships with professors, etc. You bought them a ticket to enter the door but that it. You did not and are not purchasing a degree.

[Anonymous]

If someone is dependent on you, and if you pay their medical bills, you still have to go through the process of getting medical power of attorney (or an explicit waiver) before you can access their medical records. Paying and having them dependent on you is not enough.

It's actually a good metaphor.

[Anonymous]

^^simile? analogy? Whatever.

[Anonymous]

Hey, PP, what's your issue with UMd's approach to FERPA? It looks like students can grant parents and guardians permission to view schedules and grades. Is the "annoying" part that parents have to create a UMd account (which then requires dual authentication at every login)?

[Anonymous]

Three years after my oldest started college, I have seen from the parents' FB page that the ones most insistent on FERPA waivers are the ones who do the most helicoptering.

Those poor kids.