Q re: the wisdom behind FERPA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This, like so many laws, originally had a reasonable, limited, policy goal, and has morphed over time, through a combination of the law of unintended consequences and expansive reading by the colleges.

I’m sure the college administrators originally started out interpreting the law more narrowly, and then the lawyers became more cautious. At some point along the way, it occurred to the colleges that this was a wonderful mechanism for avoiding accountability on the part of the school to parents and/or avoiding liability for not keeping parents informed about what’s going on with their children. It’s clear from the “professor” posting here. Heaven forbid they actually have to be responsive to the people paying the bills.

And, yes, if your kid isn’t able to handle the college experience, you can refuse to pay for it. The problem is that, due to FERPA, you have no way of knowing that is the case until the train is completely off the tracks. You’ve wasted your $$, & the kid has ruined their record.

No, you do have ways of knowing. You can ask the student, and if you don't trust them (or don't want to take the chance), you don't pay unless they sign the waiver. Done.

How does that not work?

Bingo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professor here. No, you should not be choosing your child's courses, checking their grades or telling them what to major in. You don't need to know that your daughter is taking comparative religion or queer studies as she works out her own adult value system if you will feel compelled to block these efforts. And no you shouldn't be "advocating" for your child to have a do over on the final or insisting they didn't plagiarize when they did. The dad who was so insistent that the paper wasn't plagiarized appeared to have written it himself!

I think FERPA is also good for parents like me who tend to be obsessive. I tried not to be a helicopter parent or care overly much about grades, but I developed a terrible addiction to checking the PowerSchool system. I need ready access to my kid’s grades like I need hole in my head.

This was also brought up at our student's orienation. Give the kids a break: They will hit the wall during their first year, and they need to be able to seek help without parents overreacting and calling everyone on campus. They have many supports in place to help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

OK, explain to me how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law, please.

And you don't understand what "check your privilege" means. It's the exact opposite of your use here. I was admitting I have it good and have an advantage. My privilege is already checked, and admitted to in full disclosure.

You're kinda missing the targets bigtime here. Maybe this discussion isn't for you. If you want to stop, that's fine with me, you needed mea culpa or anything like that. But if you keep posting, I will keep asking how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law.

[Anonymous]

PP Not the one arguing about FASFA above but I did fill out the form regrettably even though I knew we would qualify for anything but loans and we are full pay and don’t need them. We only filled out because it’s required by some schools for merit awards. For FASFA, you have to provide parent income from your tax returns

While I disagree with all the insults hurdled, I do agree that it is hypocritical for a college to say the relationship is with the student and FERPA but parents are expected to contribute and or get loans. My DD is going to UMD and they make the FERPA waiver extremely annoying and difficult to navigate.

[Anonymous]

OP, under HIPAA, even if you are paying the treatment bills, even your underage child can consent to certain healthcare procedures without you having a right to the information.

But the support and "scaffolding" you describe only work if they are built on the framework of your relationship with your child.

My kid had an IEP and there were constant struggles with the school district. They were gleeful when he turned 18 because he relied on me in those struggles (he regarded them as teamwork between him and me) and did their utmost to persuade him NOT to consent to my having access to information and being able to attend meetings. Ditto with medical privacy, although he has taken ownership of his own health care for years.

But also look up FERPA exceptions:

Another exception permits a school to disclose personally identifiable information from education records without consent when the disclosure is to the parents of a "dependent student" as that term is defined in Section 152 of the Internal Revenue Code. Generally, if either parent has claimed the student as a dependent on the parent's most recent year's income tax statement, the school may non-consensually disclose the eligible student's education records to both parents under this exception.

Postsecondary institutions may also disclose personally identifiable information from education records, without consent, to appropriate parties, including parents of an eligible student, in connection with a health or safety emergency. Under this provision, colleges and universities may notify parents when there is a health or safety emergency involving their son or daughter, even if the parents do not claim the student as a dependent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP Not the one arguing about FASFA above but I did fill out the form regrettably even though I knew we would qualify for anything but loans and we are full pay and don’t need them. We only filled out because it’s required by some schools for merit awards. For FASFA, you have to provide parent income from your tax returns

While I disagree with all the insults hurdled, I do agree that it is hypocritical for a college to say the relationship is with the student and FERPA but parents are expected to contribute and or get loans. My DD is going to UMD and they make the FERPA waiver extremely annoying and difficult to navigate.

The first exception is permission, meaning the school is allowed to but is not required to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professor here. No, you should not be choosing your child's courses, checking their grades or telling them what to major in. You don't need to know that your daughter is taking comparative religion or queer studies as she works out her own adult value system if you will feel compelled to block these efforts. And no you shouldn't be "advocating" for your child to have a do over on the final or insisting they didn't plagiarize when they did. The dad who was so insistent that the paper wasn't plagiarized appeared to have written it himself!

I think FERPA is also good for parents like me who tend to be obsessive. I tried not to be a helicopter parent or care overly much about grades, but I developed a terrible addiction to checking the PowerSchool system. I need ready access to my kid’s grades like I need hole in my head.

This was also brought up at our student's orienation. Give the kids a break: They will hit the wall during their first year, and they need to be able to seek help without parents overreacting and calling everyone on campus. They have many supports in place to help.

+1
It is basically for the types of parents who attempt to socially engineer who their snowflake hangs out with - through high school. Gotta end some time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Professor here. No, you should not be choosing your child's courses, checking their grades or telling them what to major in. You don't need to know that your daughter is taking comparative religion or queer studies as she works out her own adult value system if you will feel compelled to block these efforts. And no you shouldn't be "advocating" for your child to have a do over on the final or insisting they didn't plagiarize when they did. The dad who was so insistent that the paper wasn't plagiarized appeared to have written it himself!

I think FERPA is also good for parents like me who tend to be obsessive. I tried not to be a helicopter parent or care overly much about grades, but I developed a terrible addiction to checking the PowerSchool system. I need ready access to my kid’s grades like I need hole in my head.

This was also brought up at our student's orienation. Give the kids a break: They will hit the wall during their first year, and they need to be able to seek help without parents overreacting and calling everyone on campus. They have many supports in place to help.

+1
It is basically for the types of parents who attempt to socially engineer who their snowflake hangs out with - through high school. Gotta end some time.

I get your point and I agree with it generally, but honestly words like “snowflake” are instant turnoffs. Do better and more people will be influenced by your thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

OK, explain to me how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law, please.

And you don't understand what "check your privilege" means. It's the exact opposite of your use here. I was admitting I have it good and have an advantage. My privilege is already checked, and admitted to in full disclosure.

You're kinda missing the targets bigtime here. Maybe this discussion isn't for you. If you want to stop, that's fine with me, you needed mea culpa or anything like that. But if you keep posting, I will keep asking how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law.

You’ve missed the point. Your privilege means that you have the luxury of being ignorant regarding how FAFSA defines “independence” and you think it’s worth boasting about. I hope the following explains it in small enough words that you’ll be able to understand. As you’ll see, FAFSA effectively makes any undergraduate student under the age of 24 who does not fall under certain specified exemptions (which is most of them) legally a dependent for purposes of college tuition. The conflict here is that FAFSA makes students dependents for financial purposes, but FERPA makes them “adults” for purposes of any information related to how that money is actually being spent.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-05-02/declare-yourself-independent-for-college-financial-aid

A student can't simply choose to file as an independent on the FAFSA, the application that most schools use to determine financial aid awards. For the most part, the FAFSA relies on parental information unless the student is applying for graduate school.

"Once you're a graduate student you are considered independent for federal financial aid," says Kathy Ruby, a principal in financial aid optimization at consulting firm EAB.

However, applicants to undergraduate programs who are under the age of 24 by Dec. 31 of the award year typically are considered dependent and must go through a complicated process to prove independence for financial assistance.

What Is an Independent Student?

An independent student is one who meets certain legal requirements to receive federal financial aid to pay for college based on the student's ability to pay. A dependent student's ability to pay is determined by reviewing information provided by both the student and one or both parents.

By law, to be considered independent on the FAFSA without meeting the age requirement, an associate or bachelor's student must be at least one of the following: married; a U.S. veteran; in active duty military service other than training purposes; an emancipated minor; a recently homeless youth or self-supporting and at risk for homelessness; a parent who provides more than half of the financial support for a child who lives with him or her; or someone who has been in foster care, been an orphan or a dependent or ward of the court for any period of time after the age of 13.

[Anonymous]

DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In no other aspect of your life would you allow someone to enthusiastically and swiftly cash your checks for thousands of $s regularly but won't allow any questions whatsoever about the product from the payor, that's a product that shouldn't be purchased and needs to go under.

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Any contract signed by an 18 year old is their responsibility, regardless of where they get the money. Kiddo buys a car with your money the dealer won't talk to you about it. Same for kiddos bank account or credit card, even if it is money from you. Certainly anything medical. You might not "allow" it with an auto or real estate purchase, but this time you did, so it is on you. Don't like it, don't pay.

If you can't trust your kid, maybe you shouldn't anyway.

This entire thread has revealed a lot about certain methods of parenting that the posters must have been unaware would reveal. Astounding.

This analogy doesn’t make the point you think it does. Parents pay the college directly. The FAFSA looks at the parents’ assets, not the child’s, unless the child has been emancipated. That’s analogous to a parent co-signing a loan, or actually buying the car themselves and letting the child drive it. The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

>>> unless the child has been emancipated.

Which basically never happens/can't happen.

>>> The car dealer is absolutely dealing with the parents, not the child.

And, the car dealer has the Feds helping make the steal...

I dont know what you are talking about. An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job. You could not be more wrong.

Have your 18-year old, unemancipated, kid tell the college that they should get financial aid because their rich parents don’t want to fill out the FAFSA and see how that goes.

Not sure what FAFSA has to do with my point you responded to, but whatever.

Then you don’t understand how the FAFSA works, you’re not very bright or you’re being purposefully obtuse.

You’re funny with the insults. My point was that 18 year olds are adults, regardless of how FAFSA works. It’s irrelevant.

You’re partially right though, I have never filled one out as I am fortunate and happily full pay.

But you go ahead and do you!

No, it’s not irrelevant. And you need to check your privilege.

OK, explain to me how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law, please.

And you don't understand what "check your privilege" means. It's the exact opposite of your use here. I was admitting I have it good and have an advantage. My privilege is already checked, and admitted to in full disclosure.

You're kinda missing the targets bigtime here. Maybe this discussion isn't for you. If you want to stop, that's fine with me, you needed mea culpa or anything like that. But if you keep posting, I will keep asking how FAFSA makes 18 year old people not adults in the eyes of the law.

You’ve missed the point. Your privilege means that you have the luxury of being ignorant regarding how FAFSA defines “independence” and you think it’s worth boasting about. I hope the following explains it in small enough words that you’ll be able to understand. As you’ll see, FAFSA effectively makes any undergraduate student under the age of 24 who does not fall under certain specified exemptions (which is most of them) legally a dependent for purposes of college tuition. The conflict here is that FAFSA makes students dependents for financial purposes, but FERPA makes them “adults” for purposes of any information related to how that money is actually being spent.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-05-02/declare-yourself-independent-for-college-financial-aid

A student can't simply choose to file as an independent on the FAFSA, the application that most schools use to determine financial aid awards. For the most part, the FAFSA relies on parental information unless the student is applying for graduate school.

"Once you're a graduate student you are considered independent for federal financial aid," says Kathy Ruby, a principal in financial aid optimization at consulting firm EAB.

However, applicants to undergraduate programs who are under the age of 24 by Dec. 31 of the award year typically are considered dependent and must go through a complicated process to prove independence for financial assistance.

What Is an Independent Student?

An independent student is one who meets certain legal requirements to receive federal financial aid to pay for college based on the student's ability to pay. A dependent student's ability to pay is determined by reviewing information provided by both the student and one or both parents.

By law, to be considered independent on the FAFSA without meeting the age requirement, an associate or bachelor's student must be at least one of the following: married; a U.S. veteran; in active duty military service other than training purposes; an emancipated minor; a recently homeless youth or self-supporting and at risk for homelessness; a parent who provides more than half of the financial support for a child who lives with him or her; or someone who has been in foster care, been an orphan or a dependent or ward of the court for any period of time after the age of 13.

Someone posted that an 18-year old was a "child". I replied: "An 18 year old is not a child in any state, and is capable of signing any contract. For a credit card, for instance. Or their job."

Please explain to me how FAFSA invalidates that and then I will address the rest of your stuff.

[Anonymous]

Look, money doesn't buy away rights. It doesn't.

You can claim an elderly person as your dependent for tax purposes. You might even pay for their insurance bills. That doesn't mean you get access to their medical records -- regardless of who pays for what, they still have privacy rights, whether for health or education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP

And there is always the option of Unsubsidized Stafford Loans, PP, even if the parent won't give the information to fill out the FAFSA. Or work-study. Or having the conversation with people who are paying the tuition (the parents) on how to establish the accountability, such as waiving FERPA formally.

It doesn't matter that students are considered dependents for financial reasons. They still have rights to privacy, and they have other options. None of this establishes the point you think it does.

DP. Of course it does! The college cartel wants to have the cake and eat it too. That IS the point. Why not treat all students as independent for all purposes?.. you know.. FERPA. But no. They want to make sure parents are responsible for paying for college AND want to make those same parents jump through hoops to get basic information. All while paying zero taxes and most of the senior staff enjoying 2-4 hours of productive work each day, high salaries relative to their peers in industry, and fantastic job security.