Why do some men check out of their kids' lives after divorce?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

Nope. Not buying it. With such highly detailed particulars and assumptions which are blatantly pro mom and anti dad, it is obvious you are the mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

This is an incredibly astute analysis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Their wives used to keep them informed and tell them what was going on. After the divorce they didn’t pick up that emotional labor.

This is the TL/DR version of the nanny’s long post. It’s very true for me. Before we separated, my husband told our marriage counselor that I handled 99% of the childcare (his words!), but that he was a very involved parent. In what world is someone who only does 1% of the childcare an involved parent? He felt involved because I kept him in the loop about everything. If he knew about the kids’ friends or something their teacher said or what our oldest was embarrassed about or what our youngest was afraid of or who cried or why they fought, it was because I told him. He knew our children through me. Now our kids are older and they don’t want to share anything with him and I don’t speak with him every day, so he knows them less and less well. He doesn’t know how to relate to them as young teens. He still wants to chase and wrestle and tickle them, but they find that off putting at this age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:
.

Nope. Not buying it. With such highly detailed particulars and assumptions which are blatantly pro mom and anti dad, it is obvious you are the mom.

I am a woman, but I wasn’t able to have my own kids, so no, I am not a mom. I don’t think I am anti-dad. I have a lot of empathy for the dads I have worked with (and my own dad who is on his third family). As I said, I think it is a dynamic where men are not taught how to nurture relationships and maintain connections and manage logistics and be knowledgeable about child development, and I think it’s a shame.

Many dads are wonderful, involved fathers with or without divorce.

But for the situations the OP is asking about, the pattern I see over and over is that post-divorce dad just does not have the skillset to cope with childcare and logistics or with his own emotional needs. He interprets the negative emotions the kids have about the divorce and the increased friction caused by his lack of skill as signs that either a) he is a bad dad and they’d be better off without him, or b) mom has poisoned the kids against him and gradually puts in less effort, resulting in more negativity between him and the kids, which is a cycle that repeats until he is effectively absent.

I think the best thing we can do for men in general is to raise boys to be as emotionally and logistically capable as girls and to send a message that adult men who are struggling are allowed to research new information or ask for help and support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

This is an incredibly astute analysis.

yep. nanny should go get a PhD in psychology. also perfectly explains my dad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband was very, very involved when the kids were babies and toddlers, and still pretty involved when they were preschoolers, but he started scaling back his involvement more and more throughout their elementary school years, and completely checked out when his midlife crisis started and our marriage fell apart. He barely spent any time with them for the last couple years before he finally moved out, when they were in middle school. He eats dinner with them once a week in our family home (where the kids and I still live), but that’s it. I let him know that he’s certainly welcome to spend more time with the kids. He said his job is demanding and he can only work out at the gym in the evenings, so that doesn’t really leave any free time. I asked if I’d said or done something to make him feel like he wasn’t welcome to see the kids whenever he’s able, and he said, no, I know you’d let me see them any time.

It’s devastating to me that he doesn’t want more involvement. I hurt for my kids. I just can’t understand how my STBX changed so drastically. I would never have predicted this.

wow. that sounds like depression or some kind of double life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Both of my parents will agree that my father was not well suited for parenthood. My beautiful young mother was in love with her physician husband, and wanted the whole package of having children. He was pretty lukewarm on it all, and my mother miscalculated by getting pregnant with #3 (that would be me) in a last-ditch effort to save the marriage. That didn’t work and my mother found herself a 30 year old single parent of 3 preschoolers. My father divorced our mother and moved to the other end of the country with the woman who would become his new wife. They never had children together.

My dad gave my mother their “starter house” and some reasonable alimony and child support. Once a year he’d come to visit us at home and the older kids saw him at his house once a year for a week or two. I had my harried single mom to myself then and ultimately did travel when i was about 8 or 9 to see Dad. My mother feels she was meant to be the mother of my brother, sister and me, and does admit she picked the wrong daddy. And he’s not been terrible, just not fully engaged by any measure. He did help some with college and has presented for a couple of family crises, but has otherwise stayed distant. He’s not a terrible grandfather. One weird, yet good thing is that he has guilt about my mother’s contribution to his medical degree and still pays his $1K per month alimony... years after his legal obligation has ended. This has given my mom extra security in retirement.

such a sad story. why are men?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

This is an incredibly astute analysis.

Agreed!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

This is an incredibly astute analysis.

Agreed!

This. I was that kid. First Christmas morning we spent at dad's house, he seemed surprised that Santa had not delivered a nice breakfast. We had cereal. Eventually he did pull it together and we have a good relationship now, but it took a divorce to open his eyes to all that my mom had done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:
.

Nope. Not buying it. With such highly detailed particulars and assumptions which are blatantly pro mom and anti dad, it is obvious you are the mom.

I am a woman, but I wasn’t able to have my own kids, so no, I am not a mom. I don’t think I am anti-dad. I have a lot of empathy for the dads I have worked with (and my own dad who is on his third family). As I said, I think it is a dynamic where men are not taught how to nurture relationships and maintain connections and manage logistics and be knowledgeable about child development, and I think it’s a shame.

Many dads are wonderful, involved fathers with or without divorce.

But for the situations the OP is asking about, the pattern I see over and over is that post-divorce dad just does not have the skillset to cope with childcare and logistics or with his own emotional needs. He interprets the negative emotions the kids have about the divorce and the increased friction caused by his lack of skill as signs that either a) he is a bad dad and they’d be better off without him, or b) mom has poisoned the kids against him and gradually puts in less effort, resulting in more negativity between him and the kids, which is a cycle that repeats until he is effectively absent.

I think the best thing we can do for men in general is to raise boys to be as emotionally and logistically capable as girls and to send a message that adult men who are struggling are allowed to research new information or ask for help and support.

This. Very astute. And if they remarry it gets even more complicated. They want the new wife so they agree to the additional kid or two, but they are overstretched emotionally, financially, and logistically. They can't cope with teenagers, toddlers, old wife who is co-parenting but isn't wife-ing for him anymore, new wife and her needs, and the layer of planning and logistical complexity that comes with joint custody. These guys may mean well, but they just don't have what it takes, and they aren't going to bail on their new wife and kids so that means the old kids get scraps and are eventually left behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My parents did not get along well. My dad was fully involved even after my parents divorced. In fact, we still saw him everyday. He'd pick us up after school, take us to play, eat, sports, shopping etc. Then take us home and repeat the next day. We didn't experience any negative changes. But, he's an amazing father, always made the effort, never changed to this day, he's the same as a grandpa.

I would think men who abandon their children after they're divorced, were that way prior to divorcing. Even if they stayed married they'd most likely be absent from their child's life.

The sexism here is disgusting. These men are selfish asses. Nothing more. Yes, there are cases where dads give up when there is contention but these examples are guys who are mamma's boys and narcissists. They are horrible people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a nanny and have seen this up close and personal in my own family and with two different nanny families. I am now in my 40’s and starting to see it play out among friends. I think it comes down to a few things:

1) Men are not socialized to have a baseline understanding of child development stages in the same ways that women are. They are also culturally programmed to believe that seeking out new information is a sign of weakness.

2) Developing and maintaining personal relationships is a skillset, but because women are socialized to develop those skills and men are not, the skillset is often invisible to men. They often don't realize the degree to which their friendships (even with other men) and family relationships (with extended family), and parent-child relationships may be largely a result of the emotional and logistical labor of their wife.

3) Men in our society are also taught that the only person they can be emotionally connected to is the woman they are currently having sex with.

The way all this (often) plays out in a heterosexual marriage and divorce is this:
When married, the wife supports many of the husband’s relationships by managing all the background logistics.

Example A) Dad can have a “Sunday morning pancake” ritual with the children because mom has made sure the children went to bed at a reasonable hour Saturday night, that there are the right ingredients and clean dishes in the kitchen, that the children’s Sunday morning is free from homework pressure, critical errands and housework and other social or extracurricular obligations for dad and children. Dad feels that because he is physically there making pancakes he has done this all himself. After the divorce, dad has to arrange for his own dishes and ingredients. He has to make weekend plans that leave time for the lazy Sunday mornings without having children who are crabby from being in the house all day Saturday doing nothing (or from doing too much on Saturday and being exhausted). Suddenly, this ritual is not going smoothly. Surely the difference is that the children are being badly influenced by mom. They were never this rude before. He is hurt and drops the routine, losing a point of connection to his kids.

Example B:
During marriage, mom made sure to watch like a hawk when sign-ups are due for Parent-teacher conferences. She diligently signs up right away for a slot that dad can most likely be available and puts it on the family calendar and reminds him a few days before. Dad goes to the conference and gets a good sense of how school is going for his child. After the divorce, parents decide that mom will attend the fall conference and dad will attend in spring. Dad doesn’t realize how quickly the good slots fill up, and doesn’t jump on the email right away. He ends up not being able to find a time that he can get away from work and blows off the conference, blaming mom for not warning him.

Example C: During the marriage, mom spent a lot of time arranging double dates, playdates and backyard barbecues with a handful of other moms, all of whom have children the same age as her kids. This means that she has a group of people she can call to help out with carpool snags and other logistical challenges. It also means that weekends are filled with social time where the families get together and the parents and kids all socialize. After the divorce, this group continues to socialize with mom because she formed the friendships. The dads may occasionally invite dad to a boys’ night out but he can’t readily call of this support network for favors to help him manage the kids’ routines during his custodial time. The result is that he struggles to maintain the kids’ routines, and they get frustrated that going to dad’s house on Thursdays means that they have to skip ballet because he can’t drive them, or that they won’t be able to swim in Larla’s pool on Saturday, because dad feels awkward setting up playdates with parents he feels have taken mom’s side. Child complains about things they are missing out on and dad ends up agreeing to less custody because the kid “only wants to be at mom’s house anyway.”

Example D: During the marriage, mom was constantly reading about (and discussing with other parents) developmental stages and parenting tools and strategies. She may also have done a good bit of babysitting or just spending time with the children of siblings or friends before becoming a parent herself. As the child transitions into new stages, mom is ready and has things like a high chair for solid foods, a potty seat for toilet training. She has developmentally-appropriate routines (nap and mealtimes, a bedtime routine) in place and developmentally-appropriate expectations of behavior. She knows that toddlers tantrum and tweens are argumentative. Even when dad is parenting solo, he is doing so in a framework she has established—he follows her bedtime routine while she is away for work, he knows to feed the kids dinner at 5. He knows the toddler needs an afternoon nap, not because of his own parenting knowledge but because he is following the routines and systems mom has put into place. When he runs into a discipline issue he may fall back on parenting strategies he has learned from watching her, and the consistency between parents makes the children more likely to comply with a consequence like “time out” because mom put in the work to show them what a time out is and to enforce sitting in time out. After the divorce, mom is no longer providing this framework. So as the children age into new stages, dad is working with outmoded information. The 3 year old no longer naps and therefore needs an earlier bedtime he throws 5 tantrums between 7 and 8pm. The tween is too old for timeouts and becomes rebellious and defiant at the command. The dad finds this sudden chaos overwhelming and thinks perhaps he is not a good parent. He cannot manage the kids and gradually reduces the time they are with him.

Example E: during the marriage, mom made sure to schedule monthly one-on-one outings for each kid with dad. She also managed many of the relationships with extended family: sending holiday presents, birthday cards, arranging face times and invites to recitals and soccer matches. After the divorce, dad finds that many of their couple friends “take her side,” and many of his family members aren't as present as they used to be. Now that he has all the children together during all of his parenting time, he finds it harder to connect with them emotionally. He feels very lonely and rejected. He begins dating shortly after the separation and is eager to get serious with someone because he is starved for emotional connection. Once he begins seriously dating another woman, his life becomes more fulfilling—girlfriend arranged meetups with her friends and their boyfriends or husbands. Instead of spending his non-custodial days along he is with her or her friends and family. His time with the children continues to be difficult and his girlfriend (who is now the primary relationship in his life), may also be absent more on days when he has the kids. His life with her (and without the kids), begins to feel more real to him than the slog of childcare and he gradually reduces the time he spends with his children. Over time he may go days, then weeks and in some case months without really thinking about the kids.

Sounds like very controlling moms with uninvolved parents and lots of family drama. Those aren't normal lives - rich people who pawn their kids off to nannies. How much time did mom really spend with the kids with a full time nanny.

So all moms with nannies are neglectful and abusive but dads with nannies are all fine, right?

+1000. It's always the woman's fault, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both of my parents will agree that my father was not well suited for parenthood. My beautiful young mother was in love with her physician husband, and wanted the whole package of having children. He was pretty lukewarm on it all, and my mother miscalculated by getting pregnant with #3 (that would be me) in a last-ditch effort to save the marriage. That didn’t work and my mother found herself a 30 year old single parent of 3 preschoolers. My father divorced our mother and moved to the other end of the country with the woman who would become his new wife. They never had children together.

My dad gave my mother their “starter house” and some reasonable alimony and child support. Once a year he’d come to visit us at home and the older kids saw him at his house once a year for a week or two. I had my harried single mom to myself then and ultimately did travel when i was about 8 or 9 to see Dad. My mother feels she was meant to be the mother of my brother, sister and me, and does admit she picked the wrong daddy. And he’s not been terrible, just not fully engaged by any measure. He did help some with college and has presented for a couple of family crises, but has otherwise stayed distant. He’s not a terrible grandfather. One weird, yet good thing is that he has guilt about my mother’s contribution to his medical degree and still pays his $1K per month alimony... years after his legal obligation has ended. This has given my mom extra security in retirement.

such a sad story. why are men?

Often the divorced dad regards marriage #1 as a mistake and wants to completely reinvent himself.
Unfortunately often that means he really doesn't want much to do with the kids either. Why you see men act completely different with their new families. It's sad to see the kids blame step mom, or bio mom for alienating poor dad. At the end of the day he really just wanted to move on. If it weren't for family court, most kids wouldn't get child support. If the parents never married it's even worse for the kids.

[Anonymous]

The nanny is right on.

My dad was like that too. He completely checked out even before divorced. My mom encourage contact but he never wanted to. He never even flight for custody but he also didn’t want to pay child support. Plain simple explanation; he is just a selfish person who only love himself. I once asked him why did he do what he did. He simply said I didn’t want any kid. Your mom wanted all four of you. ( how irresponsible!)

It is what it is. He is just a human with lots of flaws.
I grew up perfectly fine with my mom unconditional love. Never need therapy. I m 40 years old now, with loving DH DS and successful career.lesson I learned is those who doesn’t love you, you don’t them in your life. They rather get out then stay in your life to cause more pain. I didn’t lose a father, I just let a person who couldn’t care less for me out of my life.
(FYI my father and I still keep in touch. He is an okay grand pa, he loves entertaining my kid when we visit. But our relationship is very superficial and cordial)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a tale as old as time. There are many men who take care of the child(ren) of the woman they are sleeping with. So, if he isn’t sleeping with her, he will not take care of her kids (even if they are his).

You did not answer OP's question.

Sadly, you seemed to act like such behavior is normal and to be tolerated.