How many undocumented students are enrolled in MCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

What does that mean? Kids who are born here in the US but do not speak English? How does that happen? Simply because they did not attend preschool?

Their parents speak another language other than English. Why is that so difficult to imagine? My mother grew up here in the U.S. and didn't learn English until she started ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I assume if ESOL positions are slashed their will be a dramatic increase in non English speaking kids I need regular classrooms?

Also wondering this. What happens when ESOL funding gets cut? Kids get mainstreamed? Or, is there an oversupply of ESOL teachers currently as it is, so they can but numbers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume if ESOL positions are slashed their will be a dramatic increase in non English speaking kids I need regular classrooms?

Also wondering this. What happens when ESOL funding gets cut? Kids get mainstreamed? Or, is there an oversupply of ESOL teachers currently as it is, so they can but numbers?

I don't think that secondary schools will feel the impact of the cuts, only elementary schools. Elementary students are already in the classroom for the majority of the day and they get support from ESOL teachers 2-5x/week depending on their language needs. Sometimes it's pull out and sometimes it's plug in. MCPS wants to "build capacity" in the classroom teachers so that all classrooms are "language rich", thereby eliminating the need for ESOL specialists.

This is most likely a few years away from becoming widespread, but MCPS is allowing one or two schools to pilot this kind of program for the 17-18 school year. It will probably impact schools with very high ESOL populations first, but I'm not sure how it will really work in schools with smaller ESOL populations. They want it to be hush-hush, but word spreads quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

It would be nice if it worked like that, but it doesn't. I gave an in depth explanation on another thread, but there's a difference between social language (BICS) and academic language (CALP). Often times students (ESOL or not) come to school with very little academic language and they really struggle to keep up with the curriculum. The gap widens once more and more content is introduced and students don't have background knowledge from which to draw.

Some students come to Pre-K or K without any academic language (positional words, colors, shapes etc) and catch on quickly if they already know those concepts in their first language, but others can struggle to learn the concept and language simultaneously and the curriculum moves on without them gaining a deep understanding. Since a lot of concepts build on each other, they fall farther and farther behind.

By the end of 3rd grade, a student may be able to communicate perfectly, but they still may not have the academic language or complex language structures needed to pass the ACCESS test which is the only way for students to exit ESOL, barring a parent refusal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

It would be nice if it worked like that, but it doesn't. I gave an in depth explanation on another thread, but there's a difference between social language (BICS) and academic language (CALP). Often times students (ESOL or not) come to school with very little academic language and they really struggle to keep up with the curriculum. The gap widens once more and more content is introduced and students don't have background knowledge from which to draw.

Some students come to Pre-K or K without any academic language (positional words, colors, shapes etc) and catch on quickly if they already know those concepts in their first language, but others can struggle to learn the concept and language simultaneously and the curriculum moves on without them gaining a deep understanding. Since a lot of concepts build on each other, they fall farther and farther behind.

By the end of 3rd grade, a student may be able to communicate perfectly, but they still may not have the academic language or complex language structures needed to pass the ACCESS test which is the only way for students to exit ESOL, barring a parent refusal.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, my only negative experiences with families have been with native born Americans. Again, that's just my experience. Unfortunately the situation at RHS, as terrible as it is, will only propogate an agenda of spreading fear considering people were just looking for a situation like this to paint all Central American immigrants in the same light. It's an incredibly unfortunate situation all around.

Because we're footing the freaking bill at $17,000 per kid per year! These leeches are robbing resources from our kids we pay for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

LOL. Sure, if they weren't poor and actually had background knowledge and if they have an average IQ and good attendance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

It would be nice if it worked like that, but it doesn't. I gave an in depth explanation on another thread, but there's a difference between social language (BICS) and academic language (CALP). Often times students (ESOL or not) come to school with very little academic language and they really struggle to keep up with the curriculum. The gap widens once more and more content is introduced and students don't have background knowledge from which to draw.

Some students come to Pre-K or K without any academic language (positional words, colors, shapes etc) and catch on quickly if they already know those concepts in their first language, but others can struggle to learn the concept and language simultaneously and the curriculum moves on without them gaining a deep understanding. Since a lot of concepts build on each other, they fall farther and farther behind.

By the end of 3rd grade, a student may be able to communicate perfectly, but they still may not have the academic language or complex language structures needed to pass the ACCESS test which is the only way for students to exit ESOL, barring a parent refusal.

Shouldn't that be what they are learning in preK? Even with free preK in MoCo, are there still kids who don't attend preK? Any ideas on why that happens? Do parents just choose not to send their kids to the free preK programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

LOL. Sure, if they weren't poor and actually had background knowledge and if they have an average IQ and good attendance.

So then, it's not about parents who don't speak English at home. It's about kids who are not as smart, and kids whose parents aren't sending them to school. Sounds like you're expected to perform miracles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

It would be nice if it worked like that, but it doesn't. I gave an in depth explanation on another thread, but there's a difference between social language (BICS) and academic language (CALP). Often times students (ESOL or not) come to school with very little academic language and they really struggle to keep up with the curriculum. The gap widens once more and more content is introduced and students don't have background knowledge from which to draw.

Some students come to Pre-K or K without any academic language (positional words, colors, shapes etc) and catch on quickly if they already know those concepts in their first language, but others can struggle to learn the concept and language simultaneously and the curriculum moves on without them gaining a deep understanding. Since a lot of concepts build on each other, they fall farther and farther behind.

By the end of 3rd grade, a student may be able to communicate perfectly, but they still may not have the academic language or complex language structures needed to pass the ACCESS test which is the only way for students to exit ESOL, barring a parent refusal.

Shouldn't that be what they are learning in preK? Even with free preK in MoCo, are there still kids who don't attend preK? Any ideas on why that happens? Do parents just choose not to send their kids to the free preK programs?

It is taught in Pre-K, but that doesn't necessarily mean they learn it and retain it. There are still kids who don't attend Pre-K, yes. First, parents have to know it exists and then actually fill out the paperwork. Then there have to be enough spots since there aren't Pre-K programs in every elementary school. Also, since it's half day with no before or after care (at least at my school), there has to be someone to get them there/on the bus and then bring them home/meet them at the bus stop.

Honestly, a lot of the kids in the Pre-K program at my school need that year to learn how to behave in school. They need to learn the routines of school, the behavioral expectations and how to be a member of a class. Morning Pre-K gets breakfast and lunch, they have all 4 specials and they play outside every day. Afternoon Pre-K has just lunch, but that doesn't leave a ton of time for academics, plus the teacher has to do individual testing multiple times per year. There also isn't any penalty for excessive tardiness or absences. Kids can miss literally half the year of Pre-K without any repercussions. Sometimes parents/caregivers just don't feel like getting them there or they figure if they're running late it's not worth it to go at all that day. Some kids don't come when it's too hot or too cold or if it's raining. Seriously.

I don't see all that much difference between kids who have had MCPS Pre-K and those who haven't by the time they get to K, unfortunately. Some kids really thrive with the Pre-K experience, but those are most likely the kids who have more exposure to richer language in their home environment anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another elementary ESOL teacher here. There are enough native born Americans who speak another language other than English for me and all of my colleagues to keep our jobs. I have appr. 55 students on my caseload and I'd guess 45 of them are native born Americans.

How do you know they are native born? I'm actually not too surprised as most of the recent undocumented children from Central America are older teens so they wouldn't be placed in elementary school to begin with.

Their birth certificates are in their cumulative folders in the office.

Then what are they doing in ESOL? Are your students only early ES? By 3rd grade, if they're native born and been in public school, they should no longer require ESOL.

It would be nice if it worked like that, but it doesn't. I gave an in depth explanation on another thread, but there's a difference between social language (BICS) and academic language (CALP). Often times students (ESOL or not) come to school with very little academic language and they really struggle to keep up with the curriculum. The gap widens once more and more content is introduced and students don't have background knowledge from which to draw.

Some students come to Pre-K or K without any academic language (positional words, colors, shapes etc) and catch on quickly if they already know those concepts in their first language, but others can struggle to learn the concept and language simultaneously and the curriculum moves on without them gaining a deep understanding. Since a lot of concepts build on each other, they fall farther and farther behind.

By the end of 3rd grade, a student may be able to communicate perfectly, but they still may not have the academic language or complex language structures needed to pass the ACCESS test which is the only way for students to exit ESOL, barring a parent refusal.

Shouldn't that be what they are learning in preK? Even with free preK in MoCo, are there still kids who don't attend preK? Any ideas on why that happens? Do parents just choose not to send their kids to the free preK programs?

It is taught in Pre-K, but that doesn't necessarily mean they learn it and retain it. There are still kids who don't attend Pre-K, yes. First, parents have to know it exists and then actually fill out the paperwork. Then there have to be enough spots since there aren't Pre-K programs in every elementary school. Also, since it's half day with no before or after care (at least at my school), there has to be someone to get them there/on the bus and then bring them home/meet them at the bus stop.

Honestly, a lot of the kids in the Pre-K program at my school need that year to learn how to behave in school. They need to learn the routines of school, the behavioral expectations and how to be a member of a class. Morning Pre-K gets breakfast and lunch, they have all 4 specials and they play outside every day. Afternoon Pre-K has just lunch, but that doesn't leave a ton of time for academics, plus the teacher has to do individual testing multiple times per year. There also isn't any penalty for excessive tardiness or absences. Kids can miss literally half the year of Pre-K without any repercussions. Sometimes parents/caregivers just don't feel like getting them there or they figure if they're running late it's not worth it to go at all that day. Some kids don't come when it's too hot or too cold or if it's raining. Seriously.

I don't see all that much difference between kids who have had MCPS Pre-K and those who haven't by the time they get to K, unfortunately. Some kids really thrive with the Pre-K experience, but those are most likely the kids who have more exposure to richer language in their home environment anyway.

The whole system needs to be overhauled. I've heard a lot about the preschool program for this population of students from teachers who are involved and it sounds like the teachers virtually act like the kids' parents, making home visits, etc. They also go through a lot of "training" in order to "learn" how to "best serve" this population.

Also, to the ESL teacher, why the need from BICS to CALP? If you study the ratios of how many jobs require only high school v. undergrad v. masters and beyond, it has stayed the same for decades and there are far more jobs requiring only a high school diploma than for college.

[Anonymous]

Our job is to make sure all students are college and career ready.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume if ESOL positions are slashed their will be a dramatic increase in non English speaking kids I need regular classrooms?

Also wondering this. What happens when ESOL funding gets cut? Kids get mainstreamed? Or, is there an oversupply of ESOL teachers currently as it is, so they can but numbers?

I don't think that secondary schools will feel the impact of the cuts, only elementary schools. Elementary students are already in the classroom for the majority of the day and they get support from ESOL teachers 2-5x/week depending on their language needs. Sometimes it's pull out and sometimes it's plug in. MCPS wants to "build capacity" in the classroom teachers so that all classrooms are "language rich", thereby eliminating the need for ESOL specialists.

This is most likely a few years away from becoming widespread, but MCPS is allowing one or two schools to pilot this kind of program for the 17-18 school year. It will probably impact schools with very high ESOL populations first, but I'm not sure how it will really work in schools with smaller ESOL populations. They want it to be hush-hush, but word spreads quickly.

Can you define a "language rich" classroom?