Aging parents who refuse to move

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Maybe for the middlel class and lower middle class, but most of my friends will inherit millions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

Then why would you keep yourself alive? I do not understand the mentality of breathe at all costs. Have you been in a lower cost nursing home? It's awaful. I'd rather be dead. I do not ever want to be a burden on my kids.

[Anonymous]

Get one of those mobile stair chairs and put the house in a tax protected trust NOW

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept that this is what they want and dying unnecessarily or in an unpleasant way is their choice. And treating their family badly is also a choice and they are choosing it. Stop fighting them, it's not worth it. I've had to accept this with my dad, and if at some point he loses the ability to know where he is anyway, I will move him.

+1. It's horrible, but eventually I came to accept that my parents wanted to live as they always had, and any ideas and support were unwanted. At some point there will be a fall or other emergency, and they will go wherever my siblings and I can find placement, but at least they will have stayed in their home as long as possible. Which is what they really want. It's very hard to come to terms with and my siblings and I look like deadbeats to their neighbors and friends, but you can't make people do what they don't want to do. In my parents case they have always been stubborn, so at least I have the peace of mind of knowing this unreasonable behavior isn't dementia.

OP here. Yes, same here they have always been very stubborn so this is not new behavior. And my mother is very immature and has zero understanding of finances (and I mean zero. She doesn’t even know what a principal is).

This comment in particular gives me peace because yes, I guess you are right that their main goal is to stay there as long as possible. Rather than downsize now into something modest but comfortable maybe they would prefer more years in their large home followed by awful years in a low grade place because they did not plan or take steps to pay for something nicer.

The house is their main asset. The money they could make in its sale will be the main source of funds they have to pay for any sort of care in the future. If they choose not to sell and let it deteriorate, then I guess they will have to face the consequences if they are unhappy with what they can afford later.

I have shared properties that are lovely with the hope of inspiring them to reconsider and they refuse to even look. The last time I shared one with my mother, a nearly million dollar property, mind you, she turned it into criticism of my taste and said she would probably die of depression if she lived there.

I am absolutely taking this as a learning opportunity and will never put my children through this. This is part of why I asked the question about finances and what we are on the hook for. My husband and I have made saving and living frugally a priority so that we leave our children with something. I fear we will get roped into supporting my parents if they do not start to make better financial decisions such as selling the house and taking steps to downsize their lifestyle. This is all aside from my concerns over their physical safety in the current situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP why is your wanting them to move before they are 80 a "lack of planning?"

I can't imagine telling my 79yo mother to move. Or, even my 88yo MIL.

Maybe because they can’t take care of the house anymore? It has lots of stairs that aren’t safe? They can’t keep up with housework?

Hire help for them.

Sorry but why would I pay for someone to take care of the home I don’t want them in anyway? It costs way more to maintain a 5 br house and a large yard than a condo…

I’m not sure about that. Condo fees in this area are expensive. Why don’t you actually do the math.

Depends on the condo, and also you have to compare true apples-to-apples. If you select a basic condo without any fancy amenities, then you can find reasonable condo fees. Remember, those fees cover homeowners' insurance (you just need to insure your contents with renter's insurance), all exterior maintenance, trash (for areas where this is charged in addition to property tax), etc.

Obviously, the difference in this situation is it doesn't actually cost much to maintain a 5 BR house...if you decide you aren't going to maintain it. You pay for it in decreasing the market value of the house. There was a house in our neighborhood that was in horrible shape...gutters falling off, tree branches literally growing into the roof, cracks in the foundation. An elderly woman lived there alone and did zero maintenance. The house was sold to a developer for like $750k vs. a similar house in good shape that sold for like $1.75MM.

Lived in a condo and had a special assessment of $35K.

Also, funny how you want to put them in the cheapest condo with no amenities. I guess that works for you.

A well run condo doesn't hit you with a $35k special assessment, as it's already wrapped into the condo fees.

Not putting them in the "cheapest" condo, but if you aren't going to use the gym, the pool, the golf simulator, the rooftop deck, etc...well then why would you purchase a condo in such a building that is going to have a very high condo fee as a result?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to accept that this is what they want and dying unnecessarily or in an unpleasant way is their choice. And treating their family badly is also a choice and they are choosing it. Stop fighting them, it's not worth it. I've had to accept this with my dad, and if at some point he loses the ability to know where he is anyway, I will move him.

+1. It's horrible, but eventually I came to accept that my parents wanted to live as they always had, and any ideas and support were unwanted. At some point there will be a fall or other emergency, and they will go wherever my siblings and I can find placement, but at least they will have stayed in their home as long as possible. Which is what they really want. It's very hard to come to terms with and my siblings and I look like deadbeats to their neighbors and friends, but you can't make people do what they don't want to do. In my parents case they have always been stubborn, so at least I have the peace of mind of knowing this unreasonable behavior isn't dementia.

OP here. Yes, same here they have always been very stubborn so this is not new behavior. And my mother is very immature and has zero understanding of finances (and I mean zero. She doesn’t even know what a principal is).

This comment in particular gives me peace because yes, I guess you are right that their main goal is to stay there as long as possible. Rather than downsize now into something modest but comfortable maybe they would prefer more years in their large home followed by awful years in a low grade place because they did not plan or take steps to pay for something nicer.

The house is their main asset. The money they could make in its sale will be the main source of funds they have to pay for any sort of care in the future. If they choose not to sell and let it deteriorate, then I guess they will have to face the consequences if they are unhappy with what they can afford later.

I have shared properties that are lovely with the hope of inspiring them to reconsider and they refuse to even look. The last time I shared one with my mother, a nearly million dollar property, mind you, she turned it into criticism of my taste and said she would probably die of depression if she lived there.

I am absolutely taking this as a learning opportunity and will never put my children through this. This is part of why I asked the question about finances and what we are on the hook for. My husband and I have made saving and living frugally a priority so that we leave our children with something. I fear we will get roped into supporting my parents if they do not start to make better financial decisions such as selling the house and taking steps to downsize their lifestyle. This is all aside from my concerns over their physical safety in the current situation.

I'm glad it helped. As frustrating as this is, a house on a large lot in Bethesda will sell to some family who wants a new build or a major reno anyway. I have the opposite problem, my mom is dumping money into an old home in a very desirable town and it's just going to be a teardown. I'm glad she's pleased with all her projects, but she keeps thinking she will recoup all her "investments."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"How do we approach this?"

You don't you leave it alone. It's all fun and games until someone tries to THROW YOU out of your own house.

OP doesn't want to throw her parents out, she just doesn't want to find them at the bottom of the stairs one day with a broken hip and nowhere to go after rehab. It's a legit concern.

[Anonymous]

MIL needed rehab and then a nursing home and DH and I did research on this from 600 miles away. Meanwhile MIL and FIL were driving-by the mentioned continuing care facility, every day. Every single day, a few miles from their house. Turns out they knew people here. And yet they had said they had no idea the place existed. Or that any place existed. That was one frustration.

Different parents, my parents, when I asked for their car keys, they refused. They hadn't driven in a year or two and did live in a continuing care community. We were just afraid they might decide to drive. It's helpful to have a bad-ass brother. My brother said, No worries. He disconnected their car battery. He said, it's done. They aren't going anywhere.

How we got our parents (my parents) to move into the continuing care facility is we told them it was just for the winter. They were use to going somewhere else for the winter. Winter passed, spring arrived, and by spring they were happy to stay as permanent residents in their retirement facility. But it was h*ll getting them to do it initially. After they had adjusted, they told everyone who would listen that this had been their wonderful idea. It's not like we, the four siblings wanted to be thanked, but it was interesting that our parents forgot all of their previous objections.

Whenever you can --- move them first. Then, sell the house. If you can swing it financially, move them first. They will only need to move a small amount of things. They'll take only what they need. After months or a year (s), most of what they have left behind they will have forgotten. It is much easier to get rid of things. Do not ask them about every little thing. Wait and see if they ask about anything. Likely they won't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

The point of Medicaid isn't so your kids can get your assets. Medicaid is for those who have no assets and would be on the streets otherwise. Your assets are there to take care of you. How to you not understand this?

Medicaid is for those who qualify for it, even if it take a little creativity

[Anonymous]

To my parents and to me eventually...planning gives you choices. My parents picked where they wanted to go instead of an emergency choice of where ever they could get into quickest which might mean they are separated. I see how it worked out well for them when my dad was suddenly in need of care. He has passed on my mom is surrounded by people and activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It depends on your parents' mentality. All you can do is try.

My parents are driving me crazy. They refuse to do any planning. They only react to emergencies, and this year they've had dire medical emergencies! I thought this would be the perfect time to help them plan, but nope... it's either: "I can't deal with this because I'm in the hospital/your father is in the hospital", OR "now I'm out of the hospital/your father is out of the hospital, we're going to wait a bit to talk about planning because we're taking a breather, we're not quite ready". In short, they're NEVER ready. My father has a serious disease that required monthly hospital visits. He's stable, but will probably never be cured. So unless they're willing to plan while being in a state of moderate and perpetual medical situation... nothing will ever get done.

I don't know what's going to happen to them, OP. My father refuses to hand over his bank account info, passwords, etc, even though last time he was hospitalized, my mother, who doesn't have access to them, was running short of cash. It's crazy. If and when he's completely incapacitated, I think they expect me to run over to them (they live in Europe!!!), pick up all the pieces, and just hand over my money to pay everything, while their money sits in their bank accounts. If that happens, I will be livid.

Start telling them how you have money issues and can’t pay for your ticket to see them. Let them know you don’t have money to hold them over in case there’s no access to theirs

PP you replied to. I blooped, though. A few months ago, when my mother was overwhelmed during my father's first and longest hospitalization, I reassured her that if anything happened to him, we would take care of her, etc, etc. And in general, even though we haven't described our assets, it's hard to hide the fact that we're not poor. However, our money is prioritized for our kids, one of whom has a serious chronic disease. We can help out every now and then, but the idea that they would just throw up their hands and just start relying on us sticks in my craw. I expect from them a modicum of financial self-care!

If they were both demented or truly incapacitated, I would be entirely supportive and understanding. But it doesn't appear to me that this is the case. They go out with relatives, and manage their immediate medical needs quite well. But anything that's non-immediate are non-preferred tasks that just keep getting pushed back. It seems to me like it's a choice. A poor one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Similar situation, including the house in Bethesda falling apart. And it had steep steps just to get into the house, plus stairs in the house. We did tours with my mother of condo places and independent living places. It helped to see the options. Money not an issue but she was stuck on staying in her "free" house (which of course was only free because she wasn't maintaining it and we had to price it low to sell).

It took her several more years to decide it was time and she moved at around 84. Doing the earlier visits helped to hone in quickly on what she wanted.

Would she be receptive to funding repairs if you managed the work? Just curious
-not OP

Possibly, but she had a view that it wasn't worth investing in the house because she was just going to sell it. So it would have been a negotiation to get her to spend the money and I didn't want that friction. She always thinks our renovations/improvements are unnecessary. We only did the very basics to put it on the market. So it depends on your relationship and the parent's mindset.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP why is your wanting them to move before they are 80 a "lack of planning?"

I can't imagine telling my 79yo mother to move. Or, even my 88yo MIL.

Maybe because they can’t take care of the house anymore? It has lots of stairs that aren’t safe? They can’t keep up with housework?

Hire help for them.

Sorry but why would I pay for someone to take care of the home I don’t want them in anyway? It costs way more to maintain a 5 br house and a large yard than a condo…

I’m not sure about that. Condo fees in this area are expensive. Why don’t you actually do the math.

Depends on the condo, and also you have to compare true apples-to-apples. If you select a basic condo without any fancy amenities, then you can find reasonable condo fees. Remember, those fees cover homeowners' insurance (you just need to insure your contents with renter's insurance), all exterior maintenance, trash (for areas where this is charged in addition to property tax), etc.

Obviously, the difference in this situation is it doesn't actually cost much to maintain a 5 BR house...if you decide you aren't going to maintain it. You pay for it in decreasing the market value of the house. There was a house in our neighborhood that was in horrible shape...gutters falling off, tree branches literally growing into the roof, cracks in the foundation. An elderly woman lived there alone and did zero maintenance. The house was sold to a developer for like $750k vs. a similar house in good shape that sold for like $1.75MM.

Lived in a condo and had a special assessment of $35K.

Also, funny how you want to put them in the cheapest condo with no amenities. I guess that works for you.

A well run condo doesn't hit you with a $35k special assessment, as it's already wrapped into the condo fees.

Not putting them in the "cheapest" condo, but if you aren't going to use the gym, the pool, the golf simulator, the rooftop deck, etc...well then why would you purchase a condo in such a building that is going to have a very high condo fee as a result?

You have a lot to learn about condo special assessments! And especially in NoVA where every condo gets zip-coded to pay the max for every repair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It boggles my mind that people want to protect their parents' assets and condemn them to a Medicaid nursing home (if they qualify) rather than use their assets to have a decent end of life.

I get someone being forced into a Medicaid nursing home if they have no money, but that kids want to preserve the money for themselves truly astounds me at the selfishness.

I think all LTC/skilled nursing facilities are sad and depressing so it doesn’t matter much.

This is simply not true. If you can afford to pay for skilled nursing, they can be much better than a Medicaid bed.

Moreover, Medicaid is for poor elderly. Not elderly whose kids disperse their parents five years out from potential death.

You are awful.

A better option is of course to receive caregiver hours from the state (some states have those age in place options).
My parents don’t have any money anyway, but it baffles me how there is no generational wealth concept anymore. Everything is spent on eldercare or blown in casinos or on cruises.

Parents in the past generally didn't live as long as the elderly live now. So in US culture, we are only now on a larger scale, being forced to deal with the care of elderly who have little if any assets to pay for LTC. My parents never gave it a thought because their parents all died in their late 60s, while my parents are both in their 90s, having made no plans whatsoever for elder care. It never occurred to them they'd still be alive at this point.

I was not talking about “no assets to pay for LTC”, I am talking about “my kids get zilch because it’s all going towards keeping me alive for 20 years when no one wants it including me”.

The point of Medicaid isn't so your kids can get your assets. Medicaid is for those who have no assets and would be on the streets otherwise. Your assets are there to take care of you. How to you not understand this?

Medicaid is for those who qualify for it, even if it take a little creativity

Oh, you mean like creative tax filing and creative accounting? You people astound me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP why is your wanting them to move before they are 80 a "lack of planning?"

I can't imagine telling my 79yo mother to move. Or, even my 88yo MIL.

Maybe because they can’t take care of the house anymore? It has lots of stairs that aren’t safe? They can’t keep up with housework?

Hire help for them.

Sorry but why would I pay for someone to take care of the home I don’t want them in anyway? It costs way more to maintain a 5 br house and a large yard than a condo…

I’m not sure about that. Condo fees in this area are expensive. Why don’t you actually do the math.

Depends on the condo, and also you have to compare true apples-to-apples. If you select a basic condo without any fancy amenities, then you can find reasonable condo fees. Remember, those fees cover homeowners' insurance (you just need to insure your contents with renter's insurance), all exterior maintenance, trash (for areas where this is charged in addition to property tax), etc.

Obviously, the difference in this situation is it doesn't actually cost much to maintain a 5 BR house...if you decide you aren't going to maintain it. You pay for it in decreasing the market value of the house. There was a house in our neighborhood that was in horrible shape...gutters falling off, tree branches literally growing into the roof, cracks in the foundation. An elderly woman lived there alone and did zero maintenance. The house was sold to a developer for like $750k vs. a similar house in good shape that sold for like $1.75MM.

Lived in a condo and had a special assessment of $35K.

Also, funny how you want to put them in the cheapest condo with no amenities. I guess that works for you.

A well run condo doesn't hit you with a $35k special assessment, as it's already wrapped into the condo fees.

Not putting them in the "cheapest" condo, but if you aren't going to use the gym, the pool, the golf simulator, the rooftop deck, etc...well then why would you purchase a condo in such a building that is going to have a very high condo fee as a result?

This is incorrect. Condo fees cover routine things and basic maintenance. If the roof to the building fails, or if the decks start rotting, or if there's some other capital expenditure necessary, it will not be covered by the condo fees. Sometimes major outlays are required.