UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.

Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.

You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.

Lord. If a fraternity shuts down, their lives aren't ruined. They have to move to different housing. It's not a fun thing, but it's not a LIFE-RUINING event. It takes years to recover from getting raped. It takes a couple of weeks (max) to find new housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of all Greeks. Educate, educate, and educate some more that binge drinking and rape are BAD and will not be tolerated. Fire all College Officials who allow this disgusting behavior on campuses. Women on college campuses should just say no to the hookup and drinking culture. If a girl is raped on campus parents should stop paying tuition until the rapist is in jail.

Stop blaming women. Stop blaming casual sex. This is about consent, and women should be able to consent to casual sex without being judged for it.

I am not blaming women. Women need to do everything they can to empower themselves against males who want to take advantage of them. Drunk hookups give men more fuel for the fire. It is a slippery slope. Now the rape victim in the article was not drunk and was not looking for a hookup but all the men around her are wound up by that culture.

You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

No. Because rape isn't usually about sex for fun. It's about TAKING sex from someone for fun. Men who enjoy rape will rape women who are willing. I wonder how many of Bill Cosby's victims would have had sex with him if he asked? Several, I bet. He was rich, famous, and reasonably good looking. That wasn't the point for him. The point was rape, not sex. Rape was what he enjoyed.

[Anonymous]

I have never been so glad to go to a middle of the road school with no football team and no school spirit. (and no frats.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of all Greeks. Educate, educate, and educate some more that binge drinking and rape are BAD and will not be tolerated. Fire all College Officials who allow this disgusting behavior on campuses. Women on college campuses should just say no to the hookup and drinking culture. If a girl is raped on campus parents should stop paying tuition until the rapist is in jail.

Stop blaming women. Stop blaming casual sex. This is about consent, and women should be able to consent to casual sex without being judged for it.

I am not blaming women. Women need to do everything they can to empower themselves against males who want to take advantage of them. Drunk hookups give men more fuel for the fire. It is a slippery slope. Now the rape victim in the article was not drunk and was not looking for a hookup but all the men around her are wound up by that culture.

You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

No. Men can distinguish between the two. They're not raping due to some drunken miscommunication. They're raping on purpose.

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

[Anonymous]

I agree with other posters. And didn't that frat at Duke also gang rape someone? Or, was it a racially-motivated attack? I can't remember.

I think the situations are different, but I admire your rhetorical understatement.

[Anonymous]

You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.


Lord. If a fraternity shuts down, their lives aren't ruined. They have to move to different housing. It's not a fun thing, but it's not a LIFE-RUINING event. It takes years to recover from getting raped. It takes a couple of weeks (max) to find new housing.

The comments were about PPs who were posting online profiles of a Phi Psi brother and speculating whether he was "Drew." The reference to "ruining their lives" wasn't to losing housing, it was to having their reputation ruined if they were innocent. Though as I said before, I'm not that bothered--the whole alleged point of the brotherhood is banding together for the collective. If they were brothers at the time, they may be complicit; they may have looked the other way; at the very least by belonging they enabled and harbored what went on. And even if they didn't know a thing, they can still share the shame--that's the flip side of sharing whatever else it is they all share. They signed up for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's really hard to believe a group of young men who worked hard to get into UVA and presumably care about their future do something so violent and criminal. I mean that's like a war crime type situation.

If it's true, those guys should get life sentences. I'm just having a hard time believing the story as written.

I am so sick of this attitude that it is "so hard to believe". While the linked story below isn't about rape, it sure as hell is about violence by UVA frat boys. One of them is currently a NOVA real estate who promotes his UVA pedigree, and is married with kids. Stop the apologist mentality for rich, white boys:

http://cvillenews.com/2001/11/29/4-former-uva-students-fined-for-assault/

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/1999/11/kory-may-sue-smith-kintz-tigrett-for-personal-inju

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2000/04/parents-shouldnt-finance-kids-defense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I agree with other posters. And didn't that frat at Duke also gang rape someone? Or, was it a racially-motivated attack? I can't remember.

I think the situations are different, but I admire your rhetorical understatement.

It was a false accusation by a striper hired by the men's lacrosse team for a team party. The case was thrown out as the allegations were proven to be false. The DA ended up getting disbarred over it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#Aftermath

[Anonymous]

Abuse of the powerful over the less powerful, and a fraternal order banding together to protect the guilty -- there are parallels between incidents like this and incidents of police brutality. We live in a society that simultaneously condemns and yet condones violence. Look closely at what passes for popular entertainment and how mean it can be and how we accept and laugh at it; it's just a slope from there to these kinds of incidents.

[Anonymous]

Virginia cavalier used as an adjective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.


Lord. If a fraternity shuts down, their lives aren't ruined. They have to move to different housing. It's not a fun thing, but it's not a LIFE-RUINING event. It takes years to recover from getting raped. It takes a couple of weeks (max) to find new housing.

The comments were about PPs who were posting online profiles of a Phi Psi brother and speculating whether he was "Drew." The reference to "ruining their lives" wasn't to losing housing, it was to having their reputation ruined if they were innocent. Though as I said before, I'm not that bothered--the whole alleged point of the brotherhood is banding together for the collective. If they were brothers at the time, they may be complicit; they may have looked the other way; at the very least by belonging they enabled and harbored what went on. And even if they didn't know a thing, they can still share the shame--that's the flip side of sharing whatever else it is they all share. They signed up for it.

You are crazy. The entire group shouldn't suffer if they didn't know what was going on. No one expects that or signs up for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.


Lord. If a fraternity shuts down, their lives aren't ruined. They have to move to different housing. It's not a fun thing, but it's not a LIFE-RUINING event. It takes years to recover from getting raped. It takes a couple of weeks (max) to find new housing.

The comments were about PPs who were posting online profiles of a Phi Psi brother and speculating whether he was "Drew." The reference to "ruining their lives" wasn't to losing housing, it was to having their reputation ruined if they were innocent. Though as I said before, I'm not that bothered--the whole alleged point of the brotherhood is banding together for the collective. If they were brothers at the time, they may be complicit; they may have looked the other way; at the very least by belonging they enabled and harbored what went on. And even if they didn't know a thing, they can still share the shame--that's the flip side of sharing whatever else it is they all share. They signed up for it.

You are crazy. The entire group shouldn't suffer if they didn't know what was going on. No one expects that or signs up for it.

There is some speculation that the rape in the Rolling Stone article was a planned, organized hazing event and that pledges needed to participate to prove themselves worthy of joining. If that argument has merit, then the entire group should suffer because they did know what was going on, and they did expect it and signed up for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.



Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.



You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.




It's not some public place - it's the Phi Psi house, so yes, they are responsible for what goes down there. Back when I was at UVa, they barely even let guys into frat parties unless someone put your name on a list. They had bouncers at the door, and they usually had guys inside guarding the stairs - no one could go upstairs unless it was a brother. They were more likely just looking out for their personal belongings since the brothers live at the house, but I hope they were keeping an eye out for all kinds of trouble. The brothers there are at least guilty of looking the other way.



When were you at UVA?

I'm the original "here's the thing" poster. I agree with 19:52--that's what it was like when I was at UVA in the 80s. My assumption was not that they were keeping an eye out for trouble--it was that they didn't want outsiders in on what was going on upstairs. No problem going upstairs if you were a woman who was attractive, drunk, or preferably both.

The victim here said she was taken upstairs by a brother, and that one of the guys who didn't want to go through with it was told by one of the watching (non-participating) guys that he had to, they had all done it. That's not outsiders. That's brothers and pledges. Sounds like a pledge rite of passage. If true, that makes the fraternity guilty of rape.

I was there in the late 90s and it was the same then as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.


Lord. If a fraternity shuts down, their lives aren't ruined. They have to move to different housing. It's not a fun thing, but it's not a LIFE-RUINING event. It takes years to recover from getting raped. It takes a couple of weeks (max) to find new housing.

The comments were about PPs who were posting online profiles of a Phi Psi brother and speculating whether he was "Drew." The reference to "ruining their lives" wasn't to losing housing, it was to having their reputation ruined if they were innocent. Though as I said before, I'm not that bothered--the whole alleged point of the brotherhood is banding together for the collective. If they were brothers at the time, they may be complicit; they may have looked the other way; at the very least by belonging they enabled and harbored what went on. And even if they didn't know a thing, they can still share the shame--that's the flip side of sharing whatever else it is they all share. They signed up for it.

You are crazy. The entire group shouldn't suffer if they didn't know what was going on. No one expects that or signs up for it.

There is some speculation that the rape in the Rolling Stone article was a planned, organized hazing event and that pledges needed to participate to prove themselves worthy of joining. If that argument has merit, then the entire group should suffer because they did know what was going on, and they did expect it and signed up for it.

Look, if it is an actual proven fact that that the rape was planned, organized, and covered up all in that frat, then they all should suffer. Right now it's just some speculation. There's some speculation that you are crazy, but that doesn't mean that you should be put under a psych evaluation right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.



Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.



You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.




It's not some public place - it's the Phi Psi house, so yes, they are responsible for what goes down there. Back when I was at UVa, they barely even let guys into frat parties unless someone put your name on a list. They had bouncers at the door, and they usually had guys inside guarding the stairs - no one could go upstairs unless it was a brother. They were more likely just looking out for their personal belongings since the brothers live at the house, but I hope they were keeping an eye out for all kinds of trouble. The brothers there are at least guilty of looking the other way.



When were you at UVA?

I'm the original "here's the thing" poster. I agree with 19:52--that's what it was like when I was at UVA in the 80s. My assumption was not that they were keeping an eye out for trouble--it was that they didn't want outsiders in on what was going on upstairs. No problem going upstairs if you were a woman who was attractive, drunk, or preferably both.

The victim here said she was taken upstairs by a brother, and that one of the guys who didn't want to go through with it was told by one of the watching (non-participating) guys that he had to, they had all done it. That's not outsiders. That's brothers and pledges. Sounds like a pledge rite of passage. If true, that makes the fraternity guilty of rape.

I was there in the late 90s and it was the same then as well.

Holy crap. Well, you could have saved Jackie a lot of trouble if you spoke up about that in the late 90s. How about reporting what you know now to UVA and the police? There's no statute of limitations, so be a good citizen and go report it.