UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The FBI and DEA should investigate all Frats in the US for drug and alcohol abuse, hazing, and rape. The thugs should be prosecuted and then all the frats should be closed forever.

Where will the funding come for all this investigation?

Same as drug dealers: seize their assets. Frats like the one at UVA are basically upper-class gangs. They are just the Hell's Angels or MS13 with better connections and blond hair...they deal pot and pills, fight, and rape now and then, but they are also about fraternal self help. Time for UVA to get out of the business of enabling these criminals.

I think that was actually a very astute comparison (though not sure about the Hell's Angels in particular, but that's beside the point).

This type of hysterical overgeneralization is part of the problem. It's like saying that all the girls who go to frat parties are drunk whores. Just stop.

Different PP, but no it's not the same at all. We're looking at a pattern of crimes in this organization that would merit conspiracy charges in many cases. Can the law require disbanding them? Probably not. Should the university? Hell yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The FBI and DEA should investigate all Frats in the US for drug and alcohol abuse, hazing, and rape. The thugs should be prosecuted and then all the frats should be closed forever.

Where will the funding come for all this investigation?

Same as drug dealers: seize their assets. Frats like the one at UVA are basically upper-class gangs. They are just the Hell's Angels or MS13 with better connections and blond hair...they deal pot and pills, fight, and rape now and then, but they are also about fraternal self help. Time for UVA to get out of the business of enabling these criminals.

I think that was actually a very astute comparison (though not sure about the Hell's Angels in particular, but that's beside the point).

This type of hysterical overgeneralization is part of the problem. It's like saying that all the girls who go to frat parties are drunk whores. Just stop.

Different PP, but no it's not the same at all. We're looking at a pattern of crimes in this organization that would merit conspiracy charges in many cases. Can the law require disbanding them? Probably not. Should the university? Hell yes.

What about when the members of the fraternity turn over so frequently. Could they really build a case against them longterm?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's spalling that these rapes were reported to the school in some cases, according to the WashPost, and the school did nothing. Chose to cover it up. Screw UVA. Remove the frats for the rest of the school year.
PSU was stripped of so much, let's see UVA pay for their school coverup as well. Equal punishment for equal sexual assault cover ups.

Remove them all permanently. That's the only way the school can ever be taken seriously again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's spalling that these rapes were reported to the school in some cases, according to the WashPost, and the school did nothing. Chose to cover it up. Screw UVA. Remove the frats for the rest of the school year.
PSU was stripped of so much, let's see UVA pay for their school coverup as well. Equal punishment for equal sexual assault cover ups.

Remove them all permanently. That's the only way the school can ever be taken seriously again.

All penn state cared about was not missing even one football season. They couldn't care less about what happens to the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's spalling that these rapes were reported to the school in some cases, according to the WashPost, and the school did nothing. Chose to cover it up. Screw UVA. Remove the frats for the rest of the school year.
PSU was stripped of so much, let's see UVA pay for their school coverup as well. Equal punishment for equal sexual assault cover ups.

Remove them all permanently. That's the only way the school can ever be taken seriously again.

You think UVA will never have credibility again until they disband the fraternities? Hate to tell you, this will stop being in the headlines, some official investigations will be started and some firings and expulsions will take place. Then time will pass and UVA will adopt some stronger measures, more support for victims, stronger punishments for honor code violation.

And in the end UVA will still be a desirable school to get into.

[Anonymous]

UVA has been slipping . The culture is probably part of the problem. IF it actually gets fixed ... Which will be a huge undertaking , the school will improve .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of all Greeks. Educate, educate, and educate some more that binge drinking and rape are BAD and will not be tolerated. Fire all College Officials who allow this disgusting behavior on campuses. Women on college campuses should just say no to the hookup and drinking culture. If a girl is raped on campus parents should stop paying tuition until the rapist is in jail.

Stop blaming women. Stop blaming casual sex. This is about consent, and women should be able to consent to casual sex without being judged for it.

I am not blaming women. Women need to do everything they can to empower themselves against males who want to take advantage of them. Drunk hookups give men more fuel for the fire. It is a slippery slope. Now the rape victim in the article was not drunk and was not looking for a hookup but all the men around her are wound up by that culture.

You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

[Anonymous]

What about when the members of the fraternity turn over so frequently. Could they really build a case against them longterm?

Yes, "they" can. "They" can include the national fraternity organization and/or the university with which it is affiliated.

[Anonymous]

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.



Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.



You know, frat parties are full of people, including guys who are not members of that particular frat. William Beebe raped a woman in the Phi Psi house back in the 80s, but he wasn't even a member of that frat. We don't know if the rapists were all members of the frat, and ruining the lives of some guys for just being innocent members of Phi Psi is pretty psycho.




It's not some public place - it's the Phi Psi house, so yes, they are responsible for what goes down there. Back when I was at UVa, they barely even let guys into frat parties unless someone put your name on a list. They had bouncers at the door, and they usually had guys inside guarding the stairs - no one could go upstairs unless it was a brother. They were more likely just looking out for their personal belongings since the brothers live at the house, but I hope they were keeping an eye out for all kinds of trouble. The brothers there are at least guilty of looking the other way.



When were you at UVA?

I'm the original "here's the thing" poster. I agree with 19:52--that's what it was like when I was at UVA in the 80s. My assumption was not that they were keeping an eye out for trouble--it was that they didn't want outsiders in on what was going on upstairs. No problem going upstairs if you were a woman who was attractive, drunk, or preferably both.

The victim here said she was taken upstairs by a brother, and that one of the guys who didn't want to go through with it was told by one of the watching (non-participating) guys that he had to, they had all done it. That's not outsiders. That's brothers and pledges. Sounds like a pledge rite of passage. If true, that makes the fraternity guilty of rape.

[Anonymous]

There's always been something about Charlottesville that gives me the creeps.

[Anonymous]

I agree with other posters. And didn't that frat at Duke also gang rape someone? Or, was it a racially-motivated attack? I can't remember.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

If men cared about the difference, rape would end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

If men cared about the difference, rape would end.

Well, no, it wouldn't, because some men rape deliberately. As a power thing or whatever, I don't know. But clearly anyone who commits a violent rape (knifepoint, gun, knocks the woman out, whatever) has to know that the woman does not want sex, and he's doing it anyway. Here, the victim alleged that one man told another (or others) to hold her legs apart and keep her still. That's a pretty clear indicator that they knew quite well that she was not willing. In fact that was probably the point. So, under your premise, perhaps date rape would end, but violent or deliberate rape would not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with other posters. And didn't that frat at Duke also gang rape someone? Or, was it a racially-motivated attack? I can't remember.

That was a false accusation, she eventually went to jail for murder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You seem to think that men cannot distinguish between someone who wants casual sex with them, and someone who does not. Pretty sexist, PP.

If men COULD distinguish the two, then rape would be non-existent, right???!!

If men cared about the difference, rape would end.

Well, no, it wouldn't, because some men rape deliberately. As a power thing or whatever, I don't know. But clearly anyone who commits a violent rape (knifepoint, gun, knocks the woman out, whatever) has to know that the woman does not want sex, and he's doing it anyway. Here, the victim alleged that one man told another (or others) to hold her legs apart and keep her still. That's a pretty clear indicator that they knew quite well that she was not willing. In fact that was probably the point. So, under your premise, perhaps date rape would end, but violent or deliberate rape would not.

Good clarification, thanks. I am so fed up with the "blame hookup culture" poster (Christina Hoff Sommers, is that you?) that I am not being as precise as I should.

But also, "acquaintance rape," not "date rape."