PSA: Please do not host a Christian seder

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

I mean, there’s plenty that Christians embrace that are totally antithetical to what Jews believe.

Judaism isn’t some primitive version of Christianity.

Of course not; I wasn’t suggesting it is.

But that’s what you imply when you talk about how Christians should be able to just celebrate Christian Seders, when Jesus wouldn’t have had a Passover Seder, as they didn’t exist then. Passover existed, but not as a Seder.

Why not just acknowledge it as the Last Supper? Maudy Thursday is all about that, right? How is incorporating elements of a rabbinical Passover Seder enhancing or informing Christianity, when those traditions didn’t start until 70-600 years after Jesus died?

Because It is about redemption, God’s love and protection, and the importance of retelling history.

And none of that has anything to do with rabbinical Passover.

To whit: you can claim the Last Supper, and the lamb sacrifice as something Jesus participated in as part of that, but you don’t get to tell us what rabbinical Passover is about. That was hundreds of years after Jesus died and was exclusively a Jewish matter.

No one is trying to tell you what Passover is about. You are trying to tell others why they can’t find meaning in it for themselves. If they believe it informs their religion or enhances their belief in God isn’t that a personal experience? One that doesn’t take away from or erase your practice or beliefs?

We’ve explained many, many times how it’s disrespectful to take a Seder, which is wholly Jewish and was conceived of 70-500 years after Jesus’s death, and making it about Jesus is disrespectful. The Last Supper was not a Seder because Passover wasn’t celebrated that way then.

We’ve told you many times about how it amounts to erasing what is wholly a Jewish experience.

We can’t stop you from doing it. We can only tell you what it is.

We have told you many times how even though Jesus didn’t himself participate in a Passover Seder, there is still meaning in it for some Christians.
How does doing so amount to erasing your experience?

Nothing anyone does in their own home or own house of worship "erases" someone else's beliefs, practices or traditions. Just like you not recognizing Jesus as Savior does not "erase" that truth for me.
Because you’re literally taking our Seder, erasing it, and inserting Jesus into it.

I am not taking a Christian ritual and eliminating Jesus from it.

And if you did, that wouldn't affect my beliefs, practices, or ability to worship in any way.

You could put up a manger scene and put a bag of M&Ms where the Christ Child should be; that doesn't agent me. You could hang a photo of Rick James on a cross instead of a figure of Christ. That doesn't affect me. You could light a menorah but call it an Advent wreath. That has no affect on me, what I do, and what I believe.

As has been said, no one can stop you from being disrespectful. But it’s empathetic to understand why your choices impact others and maybe take them into account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

“That said, the Jewish holiday of Passover has nothing to do with Jesus. None whatsoever.”

For Christians, Passover has a lot to do with Jesus. The blood of the lambs put on doorframes during Passover is the antecedent to Jesus’ blood shed on the cross. He becomes (for Christians) the final sacrificial lamb.

I understand that (most) Jews don’t believe Jesus is “The Lamb of God,” but Christians believe that he is. For Christians, Passover is symbolic and prophetic.

“Get rid of the old leaven, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.” 1 Corinthians 5:7

YOU ARE DESCRIBING EASTER. easter. EASTER. (yes, I will continue posting this.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just from a basic learning standpoint, how/why was the rabbinical Seder created? I’ve gathered there was a prior form of Passover celebration (which Jesus celebrated) and some years later the Seder was established. Can someone let us know the background? Thanks

During Jesus’s time, the Jews had a large temple where we did animal sacrifices, had priests, etc. In 70 CE, the Romans destroyed it (and may have used some of it to build the Colosseum). The remaining wall of the Second Temple is the Western wall, the holiest site for Jews. The Dome of the Rock is currently on the site of the Second Temple.

Anyway, after the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews went into exile, and we’ve been in exile ever since (except for Jews who live in Israel). We started to write our prayers down, since we couldn’t as easily rely on oral traditions, like we did when we had the temple and could all gather there. That’s how we started writing the Torah as an intact document. That’s when we switched from having high priests to having rabbis — hence the term “rabbinical Judaism” for that time period, which extends to this day. The Seder was created as a largely home-based ritual during that time period.

So as you can see, the rabbinical Seder came out of adjustments we had to make because of persecution we faced. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

Thank you. Another key element is that the seder is intended to teach children (the four questions.) the seder itself is a home-based religious rite. that’s what I think a lot of Christians are not understanding because typically Christian rites happen in Church, not at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

I mean, there’s plenty that Christians embrace that are totally antithetical to what Jews believe.

Judaism isn’t some primitive version of Christianity.

Of course not; I wasn’t suggesting it is.

But that’s what you imply when you talk about how Christians should be able to just celebrate Christian Seders, when Jesus wouldn’t have had a Passover Seder, as they didn’t exist then. Passover existed, but not as a Seder.

Why not just acknowledge it as the Last Supper? Maudy Thursday is all about that, right? How is incorporating elements of a rabbinical Passover Seder enhancing or informing Christianity, when those traditions didn’t start until 70-600 years after Jesus died?

actually it goes deeper than Maundy Thursday, although that is traditionally when the Last Supper is in the liturgy. For Catholics and other denominations, communion — a central sacrament, if not the most important one — is entirely in commemoration of “Jesus’s Passover.” That is why the communion host is unlevened and everyone drinks a ritual sip of wine. The Eucharistic Prayer includes the Last Supper and expresses thanks for Christ as the Lamb of God/Paschal Sacrifice. Christians who feel they need to “celebrate passover” should maybe go to a communion service?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just from a basic learning standpoint, how/why was the rabbinical Seder created? I’ve gathered there was a prior form of Passover celebration (which Jesus celebrated) and some years later the Seder was established. Can someone let us know the background? Thanks

During Jesus’s time, the Jews had a large temple where we did animal sacrifices, had priests, etc. In 70 CE, the Romans destroyed it (and may have used some of it to build the Colosseum). The remaining wall of the Second Temple is the Western wall, the holiest site for Jews. The Dome of the Rock is currently on the site of the Second Temple.

Anyway, after the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews went into exile, and we’ve been in exile ever since (except for Jews who live in Israel). We started to write our prayers down, since we couldn’t as easily rely on oral traditions, like we did when we had the temple and could all gather there. That’s how we started writing the Torah as an intact document. That’s when we switched from having high priests to having rabbis — hence the term “rabbinical Judaism” for that time period, which extends to this day. The Seder was created as a largely home-based ritual during that time period.

So as you can see, the rabbinical Seder came out of adjustments we had to make because of persecution we faced. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

Thank you. Another key element is that the seder is intended to teach children (the four questions.) the seder itself is a home-based religious rite. that’s what I think a lot of Christians are not understanding because typically Christian rites happen in Church, not at home.

Very good point. You’re right, of course. Much of Judaism ended up being practiced at home after the destruction of the Temple and particularly as we continued to face discrimination and genocide because we needed to hide our religious practices and ensure we could continue them, despite our places of worship being destroyed.

A huge part of our Seder is teaching our story to our children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

Hardly. First of all, most Jewish families don’t have a Christmas tree. Interfaith families do, but hardly any wholly Jewish families.

Second, the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. It’s not like a nativity scene.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

Hardly. First of all, most Jewish families don’t have a Christmas tree. Interfaith families do, but hardly any wholly Jewish families.

Second, the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. It’s not like a nativity scene.

Thank you for clarifying what is a religious symbol for Christians! I’ll follow your lead and clarify what you should consider a religious symbol in Judaism, sounds good?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

Hardly. First of all, most Jewish families don’t have a Christmas tree. Interfaith families do, but hardly any wholly Jewish families.

Second, the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. It’s not like a nativity scene.

Thank you for clarifying what is a religious symbol for Christians! I’ll follow your lead and clarify what you should consider a religious symbol in Judaism, sounds good?

If a Christmas tree is generally considered a religious symbol, please provide evidence of such, and I’ll gladly admit I was wrong. We’ve provided ample evidence of why it’s inappropriate for Christians to have a Christian Seder.

[Anonymous]

Please refrain from whataboutism in this thread.

If Christians have a problem with Jews having a Christmas tree, please start your own thread. It’s not relevant to this discussion.

[Anonymous]

Here’s what this Catholic site has to say about Christmas trees:

“In short, although Christmas trees are a beloved custom in much of the English-speaking world, they are not necessary to the celebration of the holiday and are not nearly as symbolic of the holiday as the crèche. If it is agreed that a religious symbol should be understood to mean a tangible object intrinsically attached to that holiday, then Christmas trees are to Christmas what dreidels are to Hanukkah—a beloved custom but not a religious symbol.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-christmas-trees-be-considered-a-religious-symbol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

Hardly. First of all, most Jewish families don’t have a Christmas tree. Interfaith families do, but hardly any wholly Jewish families.

Second, the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. It’s not like a nativity scene.

Thank you for clarifying what is a religious symbol for Christians! I’ll follow your lead and clarify what you should consider a religious symbol in Judaism, sounds good?

If a Christmas tree is generally considered a religious symbol, please provide evidence of such, and I’ll gladly admit I was wrong. We’ve provided ample evidence of why it’s inappropriate for Christians to have a Christian Seder.

Your evidence is that Christians should trash half their holy book because many prophets and traditions overlap with Judaism. You keep saying Passover is Easter when it is not. You want to erase half of the Christian tradition because you think the stories in the Old Testament/Torah/Qran belong only to Jews. That’s a nonstarter. I do not accept that Passover that is described in the Bible amounts to appropriation or that it is Easter—a separate holiday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s what this Catholic site has to say about Christmas trees:

“In short, although Christmas trees are a beloved custom in much of the English-speaking world, they are not necessary to the celebration of the holiday and are not nearly as symbolic of the holiday as the crèche. If it is agreed that a religious symbol should be understood to mean a tangible object intrinsically attached to that holiday, then Christmas trees are to Christmas what dreidels are to Hanukkah—a beloved custom but not a religious symbol.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-christmas-trees-be-considered-a-religious-symbol

That’s an interesting comparison because I’ve seen a lot of criticism from Jews about Christians using dreidels as Christmas toys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please refrain from whataboutism in this thread.

If Christians have a problem with Jews having a Christmas tree, please start your own thread. It’s not relevant to this discussion.

It was one example. Awhile back, I brought up that Jesus is a minor prophet in Islam. Muslims use the Jesus stories in their religion but he is not the messiah or even the most important prophet. Christians have to deal with this. It’s not appropriation for Muslims to celebrate the stories in their holy book. Similarly, Passover is part of the Christian holy book—it is described in the Bible. It is not appropriation for Christians to celebrate those holidays.

Nobody wanted to engage with the Islam example, but lots of people latched onto the Christmas tree analogy. I imagine because it’s easier to refute?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s what this Catholic site has to say about Christmas trees:

“In short, although Christmas trees are a beloved custom in much of the English-speaking world, they are not necessary to the celebration of the holiday and are not nearly as symbolic of the holiday as the crèche. If it is agreed that a religious symbol should be understood to mean a tangible object intrinsically attached to that holiday, then Christmas trees are to Christmas what dreidels are to Hanukkah—a beloved custom but not a religious symbol.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-christmas-trees-be-considered-a-religious-symbol

That’s an interesting comparison because I’ve seen a lot of criticism from Jews about Christians using dreidels as Christmas toys.

Can you provide evidence that Christians do that and that there’s “a lot of criticism”?