PSA: Please do not host a Christian seder

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. And Jews should not celebrate Christmas, either.

Most of us don't!

I know of ZERO Christians who host Seders. BUT, I know of MANY, MANY, MANY Jews how have Christmas trees!!

Whoa. Calm down.

First of all, just because you don’t know any doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Second, a Christmas tree is hardly equivalent to a Passover Seder.

Right... Because it doesn’t impact your religion so it doesn’t matter.

Hardly. First of all, most Jewish families don’t have a Christmas tree. Interfaith families do, but hardly any wholly Jewish families.

Second, the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol. It’s not like a nativity scene.

Thank you for clarifying what is a religious symbol for Christians! I’ll follow your lead and clarify what you should consider a religious symbol in Judaism, sounds good?

If a Christmas tree is generally considered a religious symbol, please provide evidence of such, and I’ll gladly admit I was wrong. We’ve provided ample evidence of why it’s inappropriate for Christians to have a Christian Seder.

Your evidence is that Christians should trash half their holy book because many prophets and traditions overlap with Judaism. You keep saying Passover is Easter when it is not. You want to erase half of the Christian tradition because you think the stories in the Old Testament/Torah/Qran belong only to Jews. That’s a nonstarter. I do not accept that Passover that is described in the Bible amounts to appropriation or that it is Easter—a separate holiday.

Passover as the Last Supper is Maudy Thursday. No? It’s fully acknowledged in Holy Week. No one is telling you to ignore it. We’re asking you to not appropriate our rabbinical Seder, which has nothing to do with the Last Supper.

[Anonymous]

Never ever heard of Christians having sedar. Is this made up?

[Anonymous]

The Passover that is described in the Bible is not the rabbinical Seder. It is, at best, Passover as it was celebrated at the Second Temple, which had no resemblance to how Jews celebrated it post 70 CE.

If you want to acknowledge the pre-rabbinical Seder and the Last Supper, eat lamb. Wait — you do that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just from a basic learning standpoint, how/why was the rabbinical Seder created? I’ve gathered there was a prior form of Passover celebration (which Jesus celebrated) and some years later the Seder was established. Can someone let us know the background? Thanks

During Jesus’s time, the Jews had a large temple where we did animal sacrifices, had priests, etc. In 70 CE, the Romans destroyed it (and may have used some of it to build the Colosseum). The remaining wall of the Second Temple is the Western wall, the holiest site for Jews. The Dome of the Rock is currently on the site of the Second Temple.

Anyway, after the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews went into exile, and we’ve been in exile ever since (except for Jews who live in Israel). We started to write our prayers down, since we couldn’t as easily rely on oral traditions, like we did when we had the temple and could all gather there. That’s how we started writing the Torah as an intact document. That’s when we switched from having high priests to having rabbis — hence the term “rabbinical Judaism” for that time period, which extends to this day. The Seder was created as a largely home-based ritual during that time period.

So as you can see, the rabbinical Seder came out of adjustments we had to make because of persecution we faced. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

Thank you. Another key element is that the seder is intended to teach children (the four questions.) the seder itself is a home-based religious rite. that’s what I think a lot of Christians are not understanding because typically Christian rites happen in Church, not at home.

Very good point. You’re right, of course. Much of Judaism ended up being practiced at home after the destruction of the Temple and particularly as we continued to face discrimination and genocide because we needed to hide our religious practices and ensure we could continue them, despite our places of worship being destroyed.

A huge part of our Seder is teaching our story to our children.

Okay, I understand the Seder is a very Jewish tradition.

Would it be better if Christians just called it a Passover?(no mention of Seder?) I think the biggest piece of contention is the idea that Passover as described in exodus isn’t part of the Christian tradition. (Or more offensively—that Passover is Easter.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Never ever heard of Christians having sedar. Is this made up?

Nope, it’s a thing: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/22/adding-jesus-to-a-seder-dinner-not-kosher/%3foutputType=amp

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just from a basic learning standpoint, how/why was the rabbinical Seder created? I’ve gathered there was a prior form of Passover celebration (which Jesus celebrated) and some years later the Seder was established. Can someone let us know the background? Thanks

During Jesus’s time, the Jews had a large temple where we did animal sacrifices, had priests, etc. In 70 CE, the Romans destroyed it (and may have used some of it to build the Colosseum). The remaining wall of the Second Temple is the Western wall, the holiest site for Jews. The Dome of the Rock is currently on the site of the Second Temple.

Anyway, after the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews went into exile, and we’ve been in exile ever since (except for Jews who live in Israel). We started to write our prayers down, since we couldn’t as easily rely on oral traditions, like we did when we had the temple and could all gather there. That’s how we started writing the Torah as an intact document. That’s when we switched from having high priests to having rabbis — hence the term “rabbinical Judaism” for that time period, which extends to this day. The Seder was created as a largely home-based ritual during that time period.

So as you can see, the rabbinical Seder came out of adjustments we had to make because of persecution we faced. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

Thank you. Another key element is that the seder is intended to teach children (the four questions.) the seder itself is a home-based religious rite. that’s what I think a lot of Christians are not understanding because typically Christian rites happen in Church, not at home.

Very good point. You’re right, of course. Much of Judaism ended up being practiced at home after the destruction of the Temple and particularly as we continued to face discrimination and genocide because we needed to hide our religious practices and ensure we could continue them, despite our places of worship being destroyed.

A huge part of our Seder is teaching our story to our children.

Okay, I understand the Seder is a very Jewish tradition.

Would it be better if Christians just called it a Passover?(no mention of Seder?) I think the biggest piece of contention is the idea that Passover as described in exodus isn’t part of the Christian tradition. (Or more offensively—that Passover is Easter.)

Honest question: what is missing from all of the Holy Week traditions, such that you need something else? What is not already covered?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At my church, we have a Passover gathering. It is not a Seder.

There is a reading from the book of Exodus, followed by a brief prayer, followed by a simple meal of soup and bread that is available to the entire community, including those in need of a meal.

That's it. It's not a Seder. It is a recognition of Passover and of God's mercy and protection.

That is part of my religious observance as a Christian. I will observe my religious traditions as I see fit.

ok, call it an Exodus meal.

I don't have to call it anything to please you. Neither does my pastor or my church community. We are having Passover Supper. Literally all are welcome. It's gonna be what it's gonna be, and if you don't like it, you don't have to attend.

Nice to see you being so respectful of other people.

How is it respectful for YOU to try to tell others what to call gatherings held at THEIR church? Tell me how that is respectful.

The whole "as long as" or "well then do this" attitude of some on this thread is extremely disrespectful. It's basically mansplaining, if you will. I am part of a faith community that traditionally hosts a Passover Supper. You don't have to approve of that. You don't have to like that. It doesn't have to please you.

Just like the Jewish practice of circumcision (which yes, I know is practiced by many religions, including Christianity) doesn't have to please me. It's not a choice I made for my family, but I'm not out here criticizing or telling you not to or giving you conditions. You do you. I do me. That's respect.

Yikes. Your narcissism cup runneth over, nutter.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn’t trust anything written in the Forwars as authoritative. It’s progressive drivel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do you care how another religion practices its own interpretation of religion? This is such an uncommon practice, for Christians to celebrate with a Seder, but it has you so upset?

You you find it offensive?

I don’t think you would appreciate somebody outside Judism coming in and telling you that things you do and how you interpret your religion is offensive.

Yup. And at the end of my church’s Passover Supper we all sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” and then we reenact the Crusades, ya knowing all that raping and murdering of Jews and Muslims. Some of guys get carried away, but boys will be boys, amiright? It’s our shared history - isn’t it great?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn’t trust anything written in the Forwars as authoritative. It’s progressive drivel.

We’ve been posting a wide array of sources, all of which say the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s what this Catholic site has to say about Christmas trees:

“In short, although Christmas trees are a beloved custom in much of the English-speaking world, they are not necessary to the celebration of the holiday and are not nearly as symbolic of the holiday as the crèche. If it is agreed that a religious symbol should be understood to mean a tangible object intrinsically attached to that holiday, then Christmas trees are to Christmas what dreidels are to Hanukkah—a beloved custom but not a religious symbol.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-christmas-trees-be-considered-a-religious-symbol

That’s an interesting comparison because I’ve seen a lot of criticism from Jews about Christians using dreidels as Christmas toys.

Which is ignorant, because “dreidels” were actually German spinning tops - there was nothing Jewish about them historically, they had spinning tops all over Western Europe, which is scheduled they were never part of Sephardic, Persian, Mizrachi, Italian, etc. Hanukkah traditions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s what this Catholic site has to say about Christmas trees:

“In short, although Christmas trees are a beloved custom in much of the English-speaking world, they are not necessary to the celebration of the holiday and are not nearly as symbolic of the holiday as the crèche. If it is agreed that a religious symbol should be understood to mean a tangible object intrinsically attached to that holiday, then Christmas trees are to Christmas what dreidels are to Hanukkah—a beloved custom but not a religious symbol.”

https://www.catholic.com/qa/should-christmas-trees-be-considered-a-religious-symbol

That’s an interesting comparison because I’ve seen a lot of criticism from Jews about Christians using dreidels as Christmas toys.

Which is ignorant, because “dreidels” were actually German spinning tops - there was nothing Jewish about them historically, they had spinning tops all over Western Europe, which is scheduled they were never part of Sephardic, Persian, Mizrachi, Italian, etc. Hanukkah traditions.

Yeah, I mean this Jew has zero problem with anyone playing driedel. Frankly I’d be impressed with any non-Jew who knew the Hebrew letters and the rules. Mad respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you care how another religion practices its own interpretation of religion? This is such an uncommon practice, for Christians to celebrate with a Seder, but it has you so upset?

You you find it offensive?

I don’t think you would appreciate somebody outside Judism coming in and telling you that things you do and how you interpret your religion is offensive.

Yup. And at the end of my church’s Passover Supper we all sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” and then we reenact the Crusades, ya knowing all that raping and murdering of Jews and Muslims. Some of guys get carried away, but boys will be boys, amiright? It’s our shared history - isn’t it great?

Nobody does that. This is some weird Passover cosplay that exists only in your mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you care how another religion practices its own interpretation of religion? This is such an uncommon practice, for Christians to celebrate with a Seder, but it has you so upset?

You you find it offensive?

I don’t think you would appreciate somebody outside Judism coming in and telling you that things you do and how you interpret your religion is offensive.

Yup. And at the end of my church’s Passover Supper we all sing “Onward Christian Soldiers” and then we reenact the Crusades, ya knowing all that raping and murdering of Jews and Muslims. Some of guys get carried away, but boys will be boys, amiright? It’s our shared history - isn’t it great?

Nobody does that. This is some weird Passover cosplay that exists only in your mind.

I’m not the PP, but clearly they were being sarcastic....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

I mean, there’s plenty that Christians embrace that are totally antithetical to what Jews believe.

Judaism isn’t some primitive version of Christianity.

Of course not; I wasn’t suggesting it is.

But that’s what you imply when you talk about how Christians should be able to just celebrate Christian Seders, when Jesus wouldn’t have had a Passover Seder, as they didn’t exist then. Passover existed, but not as a Seder.

Why not just acknowledge it as the Last Supper? Maudy Thursday is all about that, right? How is incorporating elements of a rabbinical Passover Seder enhancing or informing Christianity, when those traditions didn’t start until 70-600 years after Jesus died?

Because It is about redemption, God’s love and protection, and the importance of retelling history.

And none of that has anything to do with rabbinical Passover.

To whit: you can claim the Last Supper, and the lamb sacrifice as something Jesus participated in as part of that, but you don’t get to tell us what rabbinical Passover is about. That was hundreds of years after Jesus died and was exclusively a Jewish matter.

No one is trying to tell you what Passover is about. You are trying to tell others why they can’t find meaning in it for themselves. If they believe it informs their religion or enhances their belief in God isn’t that a personal experience? One that doesn’t take away from or erase your practice or beliefs?

We’ve explained many, many times how it’s disrespectful to take a Seder, which is wholly Jewish and was conceived of 70-500 years after Jesus’s death, and making it about Jesus is disrespectful. The Last Supper was not a Seder because Passover wasn’t celebrated that way then.

We’ve told you many times about how it amounts to erasing what is wholly a Jewish experience.

We can’t stop you from doing it. We can only tell you what it is.

NP. Raised Catholic.

I heard about Christian seders in the 70s growing up, and I always felt uncomfortable about them. "Appropriation" didn't have the same weight back then, but that's what it was, and is.

Passover supper? Sure. But "seder" draws on the weight of Jewish history and oppression.