Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pendulum is starting to swing back the other way, and modern tradliving is going to become the norm.

Intentional living is becoming the norm. Women may always represent an outsized proportion of the caregiving duties. But there are plenty of men who may like to take these roles as well.

Our capitalistic, winner takes all system already supports for high earners and it’s working. The issue is that middle class and working class men aren’t being given the emotional education to take personally responsibility for their lives. The messaging hasn’t shifted for them, only for women. They are still promised that if they are chivalrous then they deserve a beautiful woman who will adore them and she will provide him with a family that validates him as a good man. Are we suprised these men are aimless and angry?

Messaging from whom exactly? FoxNews?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

I was responding to the person who mentioned BDSM and was saying that is a very small part of our dynamic, 1-2 scented per month that at more on the BD side, and that the submissive side of me in the newsroom is not the same type of submissive outside of the bedrooms. The scheduled intimate activities aren’t of the BDSM type.
And I am definitely the submissive one.

It might appear different without the bedroom accessories but the underlying premise is still the same. Rules. Roles. Rituals. Scenes "ready when gets home from work". Submissive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

Semantics. My point is that while gender is mostly a social construct it's not entirely inextricable from biology either. Whether you're getting tied up or not, women, on avg, are attracted to guys who can take charge and having clearly defined roles of who is responsible for what is helpful for that.

Wanting to have the power taken away is an extremely common sexual fantasy. Whether it's some sort of role play where you're some low level employee that's been told to "earn that promotion", a prostitute fantasy, or even a rape fantasy. If you have any of those fantasies or a myriad of others where your power is being taken away, congrats, you're just kind of basic. But that's okay. Role play can be fun. That being said, you're conflating role play fantasy with real life. Someone might have a rape or prostitution fantasy but that doesn't mean that they literally want to be raped or a prostitute. When it comes to real life, people have dreams and goals that are rooted in reality, not fantasy. Many people want to do something they feel will make their life meaningful, whatever that means for themselves. For some people it's working a career. For others it's raising children and not working. None of this means that all or even most women want a power imbalance in their daily lives. If you get turned on by scrubbing the toilets every day and never having your husband do it, by all means go for it but I don't think that's a common thing people want. If you are aroused by having no job and spouse that has one then go for it but that doesn't mean everyone (or most people) want that. And sexual fantasy has it's place but it's not rooted in real life.

It isn’t a sexual gratification/arousal exercise for me. It is a role I am comfortable with and brings me joy. I love being a housewife/stay at home mom/stepford wife/dutiful wife whatever tag society wants to put on it or describe it.

It is who I am at my core. It allows me a great amount freedom and it allows for a very intense and satisfying intimate relationship with my husband but my daily activities are motivated by sex or sexual thoughts.

Who you are is absolutely fine BUT there were people here making the claim that all women (or nearly all?) are happier in this dynamic which is absolutely not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

Semantics. My point is that while gender is mostly a social construct it's not entirely inextricable from biology either. Whether you're getting tied up or not, women, on avg, are attracted to guys who can take charge and having clearly defined roles of who is responsible for what is helpful for that.

Wanting to have the power taken away is an extremely common sexual fantasy. Whether it's some sort of role play where you're some low level employee that's been told to "earn that promotion", a prostitute fantasy, or even a rape fantasy. If you have any of those fantasies or a myriad of others where your power is being taken away, congrats, you're just kind of basic. But that's okay. Role play can be fun. That being said, you're conflating role play fantasy with real life. Someone might have a rape or prostitution fantasy but that doesn't mean that they literally want to be raped or a prostitute. When it comes to real life, people have dreams and goals that are rooted in reality, not fantasy. Many people want to do something they feel will make their life meaningful, whatever that means for themselves. For some people it's working a career. For others it's raising children and not working. None of this means that all or even most women want a power imbalance in their daily lives. If you get turned on by scrubbing the toilets every day and never having your husband do it, by all means go for it but I don't think that's a common thing people want. If you are aroused by having no job and spouse that has one then go for it but that doesn't mean everyone (or most people) want that. And sexual fantasy has it's place but it's not rooted in real life.

You've managed to reframe my response in the worst light possible. Scrubbing toilets, really? Good to know that women with real careers never have to do that.

I never send "power imbalance." I said differentiated power--meaning the couple has very distinct responsbilities and they are reliant on eachother for different needs. Yes, that requires making yourself vulnerable. Contrary to popular belief, healthy vulnerability is actually a really important component of making long-term monogamous relationships work.

Anyway, this is a common theme that has popped up on here over the years. Some examples:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1005148.page

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/361002.page

So what if gender is a social construct? So is religion, public education, democracy, etc. It doesn't mean that the structure and paramaters they provide are inherently evil or patriarchal and that any good that it provides should be disregarded b/c situations can be abused. For the vast majority of people, knowing what is expected of you and having fewer choices is a better path to self-actualization than being anything you want and having unlimited choices. The first focuses on the self, the second brings out your responsibility to others.

You can be vulnerable and supportive without traditional gender roles.

"Knowing you have fewer choices is a better path to self-actualization"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

Semantics. My point is that while gender is mostly a social construct it's not entirely inextricable from biology either. Whether you're getting tied up or not, women, on avg, are attracted to guys who can take charge and having clearly defined roles of who is responsible for what is helpful for that.

Wanting to have the power taken away is an extremely common sexual fantasy. Whether it's some sort of role play where you're some low level employee that's been told to "earn that promotion", a prostitute fantasy, or even a rape fantasy. If you have any of those fantasies or a myriad of others where your power is being taken away, congrats, you're just kind of basic. But that's okay. Role play can be fun. That being said, you're conflating role play fantasy with real life. Someone might have a rape or prostitution fantasy but that doesn't mean that they literally want to be raped or a prostitute. When it comes to real life, people have dreams and goals that are rooted in reality, not fantasy. Many people want to do something they feel will make their life meaningful, whatever that means for themselves. For some people it's working a career. For others it's raising children and not working. None of this means that all or even most women want a power imbalance in their daily lives. If you get turned on by scrubbing the toilets every day and never having your husband do it, by all means go for it but I don't think that's a common thing people want. If you are aroused by having no job and spouse that has one then go for it but that doesn't mean everyone (or most people) want that. And sexual fantasy has it's place but it's not rooted in real life.

You've managed to reframe my response in the worst light possible. Scrubbing toilets, really? Good to know that women with real careers never have to do that.

I never send "power imbalance." I said differentiated power--meaning the couple has very distinct responsbilities and they are reliant on eachother for different needs. Yes, that requires making yourself vulnerable. Contrary to popular belief, healthy vulnerability is actually a really important component of making long-term monogamous relationships work.

Anyway, this is a common theme that has popped up on here over the years. Some examples:

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1005148.page

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/361002.page

So what if gender is a social construct? So is religion, public education, democracy, etc. It doesn't mean that the structure and paramaters they provide are inherently evil or patriarchal and that any good that it provides should be disregarded b/c situations can be abused. For the vast majority of people, knowing what is expected of you and having fewer choices is a better path to self-actualization than being anything you want and having unlimited choices. The first focuses on the self, the second brings out your responsibility to others.

You can be vulnerable and supportive without traditional gender roles.

"Knowing you have fewer choices is a better path to self-actualization"?

+1 I couldn't even respond to it because I was so grossed out by it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

If she is taking on non-traditional roles then she’s non-traditional. It’s confining by definition; there isn’t someone actually confining her. It’s how she has defined herself.

Woman you are referring to here. I use the word traditional because
- I cook most of the time
- Do most of the laundry
- Handle day to day logistics of the house
- I don’t like using the word submissive, but it is accurate, we have rules
- I make sure I am “presentable“ ever day.
- I defer to my husband on most major decisions out of trust but I also don’t need his permission to make decisions or spend money
- I have various roles in our relationship, wife, lover, friend, muse, sub
- I happily will say I am housewife
- I know my husbands preferences with just about everything and make sure they are met

Among other things

Are you ok doing this while your husband goes away on business trips and has sex with other women? Or men? This is how Ive seen many of these relationships work out. Or like the Stepford wives where they just become robots. Just because you do all these things doesn’t mean you get a loving faithful and high earning husband

I do have a loving, loyal, high earning husband .

He doesn’t cheat on business trips. He has never been a hookup type of man, and he wouldn’t get what he wants out of a quick fling. We always have a long call late evening and typically is on FaceTime with DS helping with homework. Plus we typically have video/phone sex.

My question was would you be? Because right now men make less than women in this country. Men have more addictions and crime. Men still have more infidelity and sex than women. So even if you play a submissive stay at home mom role you are rolling the dice with the person you are with. A great majority of men aren't interested in being high earners, monogamous or controlling their other impulses, and loving to their wives. They like the control too much and don't like to control themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

I was responding to the person who mentioned BDSM and was saying that is a very small part of our dynamic, 1-2 scented per month that at more on the BD side, and that the submissive side of me in the newsroom is not the same type of submissive outside of the bedrooms. The scheduled intimate activities aren’t of the BDSM type.
And I am definitely the submissive one.

It might appear different without the bedroom accessories but the underlying premise is still the same. Rules. Roles. Rituals. Scenes "ready when gets home from work". Submissive.

There is a big difference between submissive spouse and BDSM most submissive housewives would probably be horrified by BDSM. I also stated the rules go both ways. Not arguing from my standpoint, I will happily admit I am submissive in many way. But I think painting the broad stroke that it is always tied to sex or BDSM is a common misnomer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

If she is taking on non-traditional roles then she’s non-traditional. It’s confining by definition; there isn’t someone actually confining her. It’s how she has defined herself.

Woman you are referring to here. I use the word traditional because
- I cook most of the time
- Do most of the laundry
- Handle day to day logistics of the house
- I don’t like using the word submissive, but it is accurate, we have rules
- I make sure I am “presentable“ ever day.
- I defer to my husband on most major decisions out of trust but I also don’t need his permission to make decisions or spend money
- I have various roles in our relationship, wife, lover, friend, muse, sub
- I happily will say I am housewife
- I know my husbands preferences with just about everything and make sure they are met

Among other things

Are you ok doing this while your husband goes away on business trips and has sex with other women? Or men? This is how Ive seen many of these relationships work out. Or like the Stepford wives where they just become robots. Just because you do all these things doesn’t mean you get a loving faithful and high earning husband

I do have a loving, loyal, high earning husband .

He doesn’t cheat on business trips. He has never been a hookup type of man, and he wouldn’t get what he wants out of a quick fling. We always have a long call late evening and typically is on FaceTime with DS helping with homework. Plus we typically have video/phone sex.

My question was would you be? Because right now men make less than women in this country. Men have more addictions and crime. Men still have more infidelity and sex than women. So even if you play a submissive stay at home mom role you are rolling the dice with the person you are with. A great majority of men aren't interested in being high earners, monogamous or controlling their other impulses, and loving to their wives. They like the control too much and don't like to control themselves.

I 100% agree with your assessments. That is why I married DH. I wouldn’t feel that I could be this open and secure with any man. DH feels the same way, I know one of his long term exes and asked him if they had a similar dynamic. He pointed out that she wasn’t strong enough to handle it. Which I was confused by. As he explained though, she was going through the motions for his gratification and to receive the material benefits of the relationship. He said that is the biggest turn off in the world. There is a lot more to that conversation but that is what it came down to. She wasn’t getting emotional benefit out of it, but would never say that. That is why he broke up with her. She wanted to please and please in a sexual way, but that wasn’t where he found pleasure and didn’t want a relationship where sex was the foundation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP said it was about having rules & rituals (“scenes”) as well as being submissive. And then also said there actually is some BM. Question is who is submissive in the bedroom.

So…very much like BDSM.

I was responding to the person who mentioned BDSM and was saying that is a very small part of our dynamic, 1-2 scented per month that at more on the BD side, and that the submissive side of me in the newsroom is not the same type of submissive outside of the bedrooms. The scheduled intimate activities aren’t of the BDSM type.
And I am definitely the submissive one.

It might appear different without the bedroom accessories but the underlying premise is still the same. Rules. Roles. Rituals. Scenes "ready when gets home from work". Submissive.

There is a big difference between submissive spouse and BDSM most submissive housewives would probably be horrified by BDSM. I also stated the rules go both ways. Not arguing from my standpoint, I will happily admit I am submissive in many way. But I think painting the broad stroke that it is always tied to sex or BDSM is a common misnomer.

Again, it’s not sex acts. But it has the same premise of trust, submission, rituals, roles, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

If she is taking on non-traditional roles then she’s non-traditional. It’s confining by definition; there isn’t someone actually confining her. It’s how she has defined herself.

Woman you are referring to here. I use the word traditional because
- I cook most of the time
- Do most of the laundry
- Handle day to day logistics of the house
- I don’t like using the word submissive, but it is accurate, we have rules
- I make sure I am “presentable“ ever day.
- I defer to my husband on most major decisions out of trust but I also don’t need his permission to make decisions or spend money
- I have various roles in our relationship, wife, lover, friend, muse, sub
- I happily will say I am housewife
- I know my husbands preferences with just about everything and make sure they are met

Among other things

Are you ok doing this while your husband goes away on business trips and has sex with other women? Or men? This is how Ive seen many of these relationships work out. Or like the Stepford wives where they just become robots. Just because you do all these things doesn’t mean you get a loving faithful and high earning husband

I do have a loving, loyal, high earning husband .

He doesn’t cheat on business trips. He has never been a hookup type of man, and he wouldn’t get what he wants out of a quick fling. We always have a long call late evening and typically is on FaceTime with DS helping with homework. Plus we typically have video/phone sex.

My question was would you be? Because right now men make less than women in this country. Men have more addictions and crime. Men still have more infidelity and sex than women. So even if you play a submissive stay at home mom role you are rolling the dice with the person you are with. A great majority of men aren't interested in being high earners, monogamous or controlling their other impulses, and loving to their wives. They like the control too much and don't like to control themselves.

I 100% agree with your assessments. That is why I married DH. I wouldn’t feel that I could be this open and secure with any man. DH feels the same way, I know one of his long term exes and asked him if they had a similar dynamic. He pointed out that she wasn’t strong enough to handle it. Which I was confused by. As he explained though, she was going through the motions for his gratification and to receive the material benefits of the relationship. He said that is the biggest turn off in the world. There is a lot more to that conversation but that is what it came down to. She wasn’t getting emotional benefit out of it, but would never say that. That is why he broke up with her. She wanted to please and please in a sexual way, but that wasn’t where he found pleasure and didn’t want a relationship where sex was the foundation.

He finds pleasure in non sexual ways?

[Anonymous]

Women don’t really have the option to slack off in school. Most trades and construction careers require physical strength that the average women doesn’t have. It just seems like there are a lot more viable options for a man to forgo attending college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The pendulum is starting to swing back the other way, and modern tradliving is going to become the norm.

Intentional living is becoming the norm. Women may always represent an outsized proportion of the caregiving duties. But there are plenty of men who may like to take these roles as well.

Our capitalistic, winner takes all system already supports for high earners and it’s working. The issue is that middle class and working class men aren’t being given the emotional education to take personally responsibility for their lives. The messaging hasn’t shifted for them, only for women. They are still promised that if they are chivalrous then they deserve a beautiful woman who will adore them and she will provide him with a family that validates him as a good man. Are we suprised these men are aimless and angry?

Messaging from whom exactly? FoxNews?

Like, nearly every sitcom and movie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t really have the option to slack off in school. Most trades and construction careers require physical strength that the average women doesn’t have. It just seems like there are a lot more viable options for a man to forgo attending college.

Are you a man?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women who sincerely believe that men are irrelevant and useless, and who are in an economic position to accurately say this, are a very small percentage of the overall population, maybe top 1-2%. 99% of women, ESPECIALLY of child bearing age, are not wealthy enough and will never be wealthy enough to comfortably care for children without outside help. The welfare state helps somewhat with this but at the end of the day nobody who makes the typical young single female salary of like 50k/yr can raise a family on that. Most women need men if they want kids, and even without kids most women are too poor to live a decent lifestyle without a second income. A few rich women bragging about their self made millions on here and dissing the male gender doesn’t change the cold hard truth that the average woman is broke AF.

Even then, men still predominately develop the technologies, fight the wars, do the dirty odd jobs, construction and other thankless jobs and work the law enforcement that make their lives so comfortable in the first place. These men are nameless and faceless to these corporate, rent seeking drones until they need them or something goes wrong though. Calling men irrelevant just shows how far up their own arses these women are. Congrats on making partner!!

Women perform the thankless jobs of childcare, nursing, cooking, teaching, cleaning and are the ones who give birth.

Why can’t we just admit that both genders perform essential tasks and more or less need one another to live a happy, healthy, prosperous life (outside of a few delusional elites who can insulate themselves from reality with $$$)

People perform essential tasks. They shouldn't be limited to certain tasks based on their sex organs.

But they aren't. There is no limitation. That doesn't mean certain things that are based on their sex organs are off limits. Being able to work out of the house doesn't mean you now can't work in the house anymore.

There is in “traditional gender roles”.

And out. According to you, the minute a mom thinks maybe she should make dinner, it's time to think about going out so she's not stuck in the house.

Just referring to the PP who explained that her and her DH have “traditional gender roles”. So in their case there are certain expectations and limitations. If there weren’t they wouldn’t be “traditional”.

I think you're conflating traditional with "expected" or "required". Who knows whether that's the case. It sounds like she likes being in that role -- whether because of social norms, biology, too many Disney movies, enjoying taking care of the family -- and it doesn't sound like she is confined at all.

If she is taking on non-traditional roles then she’s non-traditional. It’s confining by definition; there isn’t someone actually confining her. It’s how she has defined herself.

Woman you are referring to here. I use the word traditional because
- I cook most of the time
- Do most of the laundry
- Handle day to day logistics of the house
- I don’t like using the word submissive, but it is accurate, we have rules
- I make sure I am “presentable“ ever day.
- I defer to my husband on most major decisions out of trust but I also don’t need his permission to make decisions or spend money
- I have various roles in our relationship, wife, lover, friend, muse, sub
- I happily will say I am housewife
- I know my husbands preferences with just about everything and make sure they are met

Among other things

Are you ok doing this while your husband goes away on business trips and has sex with other women? Or men? This is how Ive seen many of these relationships work out. Or like the Stepford wives where they just become robots. Just because you do all these things doesn’t mean you get a loving faithful and high earning husband

I do have a loving, loyal, high earning husband .

He doesn’t cheat on business trips. He has never been a hookup type of man, and he wouldn’t get what he wants out of a quick fling. We always have a long call late evening and typically is on FaceTime with DS helping with homework. Plus we typically have video/phone sex.

My question was would you be? Because right now men make less than women in this country. Men have more addictions and crime. Men still have more infidelity and sex than women. So even if you play a submissive stay at home mom role you are rolling the dice with the person you are with. A great majority of men aren't interested in being high earners, monogamous or controlling their other impulses, and loving to their wives. They like the control too much and don't like to control themselves.

I 100% agree with your assessments. That is why I married DH. I wouldn’t feel that I could be this open and secure with any man. DH feels the same way, I know one of his long term exes and asked him if they had a similar dynamic. He pointed out that she wasn’t strong enough to handle it. Which I was confused by. As he explained though, she was going through the motions for his gratification and to receive the material benefits of the relationship. He said that is the biggest turn off in the world. There is a lot more to that conversation but that is what it came down to. She wasn’t getting emotional benefit out of it, but would never say that. That is why he broke up with her. She wanted to please and please in a sexual way, but that wasn’t where he found pleasure and didn’t want a relationship where sex was the foundation.

What is "it". The only guy I know who has this dynamic with his spouse that I dated previously is someone who was very controlling and sexual and seemed to have lack of control himself so this intrigues me. I know men who are very kind to their wives who stay home, but I don't have a close up relationship with them. I just see them on the outside as being very fair minded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women don’t really have the option to slack off in school. Most trades and construction careers require physical strength that the average women doesn’t have. It just seems like there are a lot more viable options for a man to forgo attending college.

Are you a man?

No I’m a woman. Additionally, I don’t think women are as likely to be taken seriously if we lack a bachelor’s degree. That is, if one of us attempts to get a white-collar job without one, such as in tech for example.