Tension with Wife's Family over Finances

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

OP said it himself that he feels like his extended family is subsidizing, because he doesn't have enough of his own money. Imagine being an adult and fretting about a dinner out because you don't have your own money.

I believe he said his family was subsidizing because they put him through undergraduate and medical school debt free, bought him a house, and he's already received some inheritance. He has money. No debt. He's believes paying his share of a vacation or meal with his in-laws, using his salary, is using money he has only because his parents have contributed so much. He could be the one with huge educational debt instead of his wife, but for the fact his parents paid for him. He can only afford to go on these vacations because he doesn't have to pay student loans ( or mortgage?) out of his salary.

That's how money works. When you use it for one thing you have less for another. If he doesn't want to go on vacation then he can just say no but he's so used to having all his bills paid by parents it's uncomfortable to have to open that wallet once in awhile.

I agree OP doesn't have to do these things. OP says wife feels caught in the middle. My best guess is OP resents paying for these vacations rather than saving the money to pay it forward. But that's just a guess.

Completely agree with PP calling out different value systems between families.

Right. PP doesn't get it. Both families have wildly different priorities. He doesn't want to use the money so he can pass it down.

But his wife seems to have different values. Why would OP marry someone not on the same page? She's working on her 3rd degree, doesn't work, and expects someone else to pay all the bills. It doesn't matter if it's her dad or her husband. Her husband has never had to pay any bills and resent being expected to pay for his own food and vacations.

Its fine for her to do it but in marriage its a committment to each other and both parties have to agree. If her husband doesn't agree and is stingy despite having lots of money, then that speaks to his character.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

Agree. Except we don't really know she has no family support, do we? That's his perspective, but he seems to me incredibly unworldly and imperceptive given his educational background.

[Anonymous]

However much I want to defend this FIL, I will admit tipping badly does usually indicate a character flaw in my experience.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

Agree. Except we don't really know she has no family support, do we? That's his perspective, but he seems to me incredibly unworldly and imperceptive given his educational background.

The only clue we have is her father didn't pay for her undergraduate degree, so that usually indicates no support, since OP says they're wealthy. Though OP said he had a blue collar business, so maybe he's anti-education. I guess he could also be wrong that he's wealthy.

I don't think educational background has anything to do with it. He thought his kids would be valued through both sides of their family and now he's realizing his assessment was wrong. That's not something you learn at medical school. It's an identity for him and he cannot reconcile that his FIL has a similar identity. Women complain all the time on this board that their inlaws don't value their children -- it's the same thing here. He equates money with value because his family instilled that identity in him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

I agree. Everything was handed to OP and he criticizes someone who actually worked for their money and home.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

Agree. Except we don't really know she has no family support, do we? That's his perspective, but he seems to me incredibly unworldly and imperceptive given his educational background.

The only clue we have is her father didn't pay for her undergraduate degree, so that usually indicates no support, since OP says they're wealthy. Though OP said he had a blue collar business, so maybe he's anti-education. I guess he could also be wrong that he's wealthy.

I don't think educational background has anything to do with it. He thought his kids would be valued through both sides of their family and now he's realizing his assessment was wrong. That's not something you learn at medical school. It's an identity for him and he cannot reconcile that his FIL has a similar identity. Women complain all the time on this board that their inlaws don't value their children -- it's the same thing here. He equates money with value because his family instilled that identity

I would have assumed medical school and residency would have exposed him to individuals from very different backgrounds with wildly different world views from that of his family of origin. Maybe a totally unreasonable assumption. I absolutely agree with you it probably looks to 0P that FIL doesn't value family, maybe doesn't value education (which is a huge values difference) and also wonder about FIL's wealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

I think this is it. Being around the FIL is triggering the OP, probably because he is actually a little insecure about how money flows in his family. And I think he is annoyed with his wife for wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars but has deeply suppressed it (maybe she is really attractive?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

Sorry, I didn’t say anything about OP feeling jealous. I said that being around his FIL makes him realize that his FIL got where he is by his own hard work and he, OP, did not have to work at all for the money for his education and start in life. He’s embarrassed about the fact that everything was handed to him. He feels weaker as a person, especially when he’s around people who might compare him to his FIL.

It’s likely he doesn’t even realize that this is why he is so bothered by his FIL, but it is very likely that the reason is that he feels so inadequate compared to him. But, no, not jealousy- that’s a completely different emotion.

[Anonymous]

This is likely a troll. Plenty of money but not paying for college, but then providing a loan? The story doesn’t add up.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Her loans are her responsibility. Those need to be on hold until she starts working.

For dining and travel, just accept what works for you.

Overall, be generous but don't feel obligated to go out of your comfort zone.

You and your FIL sound like more alike than you and your family.

Any undocumented quasi-agreements made between an 18-year-old and her parents are not a "loan". Its not enforceable.

Indeed, which is why I don't think the FIL really expected her to pay everything back, but wanted her to have some skin in the game.

If he was as much of a jerk that OP thinks he is, then he would've made it a legal binding contract, with an interest rate and maturity date. But, he did none of those things.

He's a self made man (unlike OP). He expected his daughter to also be a self made person and not rely on parent's wealth (like OP), and then think they are great for being generous (like OP).

A loan with a maturity date would have made clear what the transaction was. A vague "skin in the game!" "0% loan that may or may not ever be repaid depending on how we feel that day!" is a way to control through money.

we don't know if there was a payment plan, but I assume she was paying something, and now that she has chosen once again to get a degree that doesn't pay well, and her husband has stated that they will stop making payments even though OP is wealthy, understandably the FIL sees this as OP being cheap and his daughter going back on her word.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is likely a troll. Plenty of money but not paying for college, but then providing a loan? The story doesn’t add up.

Not OP, but this is exactly the kind of thing my dad does. I was unemployed while studying for the bar, and had a clerkship after school (not a firm job), so didn't have money to cover living expenses for the 10 weeks between graduation and the exam. My dad loaned me $10,000 interest free but then started demanding I begin making payments before the end of the ten weeks, pay it back on a one-year timeframe, and then pay the whole thing back before the year was up. It was not a financial problem for them. My parents have 8-figure net worth.

Many people are weird about money. And weird about giving their kids money.

I now know better than to ever borrow money from my dad. But I also would never feel entitled to borrow money and then just refuse to make further payments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is likely a troll. Plenty of money but not paying for college, but then providing a loan? The story doesn’t add up.

Not OP, but this is exactly the kind of thing my dad does. I was unemployed while studying for the bar, and had a clerkship after school (not a firm job), so didn't have money to cover living expenses for the 10 weeks between graduation and the exam. My dad loaned me $10,000 interest free but then started demanding I begin making payments before the end of the ten weeks, pay it back on a one-year timeframe, and then pay the whole thing back before the year was up. It was not a financial problem for them. My parents have 8-figure net worth.

Many people are weird about money. And weird about giving their kids money.

I now know better than to ever borrow money from my dad. But I also would never feel entitled to borrow money and then just refuse to make further payments.

Do you have siblings? This causes big problems when they are keeping score.

[Anonymous]

You were wrong to unilaterally decide your wife would not repay a loan she took from her parents. IMO her parents were wrong to give an expensive loan to a child earning a low income degree.

[Anonymous]

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- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

Wow I can't wait for your wife to take you and your family to the cleaners in the divorce

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is likely a troll. Plenty of money but not paying for college, but then providing a loan? The story doesn’t add up.

Not OP, but this is exactly the kind of thing my dad does. I was unemployed while studying for the bar, and had a clerkship after school (not a firm job), so didn't have money to cover living expenses for the 10 weeks between graduation and the exam. My dad loaned me $10,000 interest free but then started demanding I begin making payments before the end of the ten weeks, pay it back on a one-year timeframe, and then pay the whole thing back before the year was up. It was not a financial problem for them. My parents have 8-figure net worth.

Many people are weird about money. And weird about giving their kids money.

I now know better than to ever borrow money from my dad. But I also would never feel entitled to borrow money and then just refuse to make further payments.

Do you have siblings? This causes big problems when they are keeping score.

Yep. And siblings get treated differently when it comes to getting help from parents. Older sibling and I are treated the same. Much younger sibling with many issues is constantly handed money with no payback obligations. I don't even care anymore. I just want to stay the f*** away from their money.