Tension with Wife's Family over Finances

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

OP said it himself that he feels like his extended family is subsidizing, because he doesn't have enough of his own money. Imagine being an adult and fretting about a dinner out because you don't have your own money.

I believe he said his family was subsidizing because they put him through undergraduate and medical school debt free, bought him a house, and he's already received some inheritance. He has money. No debt. He's believes paying his share of a vacation or meal with his in-laws, using his salary, is using money he has only because his parents have contributed so much. He could be the one with huge educational debt instead of his wife, but for the fact his parents paid for him. He can only afford to go on these vacations because he doesn't have to pay student loans ( or mortgage?) out of his salary.

That's how money works. When you use it for one thing you have less for another. If he doesn't want to go on vacation then he can just say no but he's so used to having all his bills paid by parents it's uncomfortable to have to open that wallet once in awhile.

I agree OP doesn't have to do these things. OP says wife feels caught in the middle. My best guess is OP resents paying for these vacations rather than saving the money to pay it forward. But that's just a guess.

Completely agree with PP calling out different value systems between families.

Right. PP doesn't get it. Both families have wildly different priorities. He doesn't want to use the money so he can pass it down.

[Anonymous]

You need to cut the cord with both of your parents.

It’s very obvious that these “gifts” aren’t free. Similar situation with my family and my husband’s and we stopped taking the bait years ago. Nothing is free.

I’d rather go on middle class vacations then with my parents or in-laws who then will make us feel like we owe them and cause all sorts of drama.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

OP said it himself that he feels like his extended family is subsidizing, because he doesn't have enough of his own money. Imagine being an adult and fretting about a dinner out because you don't have your own money.

I believe he said his family was subsidizing because they put him through undergraduate and medical school debt free, bought him a house, and he's already received some inheritance. He has money. No debt. He's believes paying his share of a vacation or meal with his in-laws, using his salary, is using money he has only because his parents have contributed so much. He could be the one with huge educational debt instead of his wife, but for the fact his parents paid for him. He can only afford to go on these vacations because he doesn't have to pay student loans ( or mortgage?) out of his salary.

That's how money works. When you use it for one thing you have less for another. If he doesn't want to go on vacation then he can just say no but he's so used to having all his bills paid by parents it's uncomfortable to have to open that wallet once in awhile.

I agree OP doesn't have to do these things. OP says wife feels caught in the middle. My best guess is OP resents paying for these vacations rather than saving the money to pay it forward. But that's just a guess.

Completely agree with PP calling out different value systems between families.

Right. PP doesn't get it. Both families have wildly different priorities. He doesn't want to use the money so he can pass it down.

But his wife seems to have different values. Why would OP marry someone not on the same page? She's working on her 3rd degree, doesn't work, and expects someone else to pay all the bills. It doesn't matter if it's her dad or her husband. Her husband has never had to pay any bills and resent being expected to pay for his own food and vacations.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

DP: So on the one hand you think of family money as "collective" but not when it comes to your wife and her financial obligations? I'm guessing you would not force her to default on a government laon. This is no different in the eyes of the law or her family. She has a contractual obligation to repay, whether you think the loan was fair or not.

[Anonymous]

Unlike many other commenters, I agree the education loan is BS. It’s a terrible idea to take out a loan from a relative. Now it’s like you’re expected to fork over money on a regular basis to your in-laws who are or at least claim to be wealthy.

At this point, you need to stop going on vacations or out for meals and distance yourself. That’s all this boils down to. For both sides of the family, you need to become independent with your wife and stop enmeshing yourself financially with your parents or the in-laws.

I have a mother who is very strange about money. She is worth millions but is cheap and will want to tag along on vacation but not pay for any lodging. All sorts of examples of weird behaviors regarding money. It has gotten better now that I have boundaries and don’t put up with this treatment.

I’d also question if your in-laws actually have as much money as they claim. There is a chance they aren’t as wealthy as you think. My in-laws act a bit similar and turns out they are big spenders.

[Anonymous]

The other problem is that you guys need to stop spending so much money on education. Especially in your wife’s situation it’s a giant waste of money. That money could be invested for future generations instead of paying the salaries of campus administrators.

[Anonymous]

You and your wife have to decide as a couple how your new family, the two of you together, view and value money. It is now your collective wealth (absent terms of a prenup), and you both need to agree on what and how you spend. Work it out together.

If you don't have a pre-nuptial, you need to absolutely get out of your head that your father in law is dining on your grandfather's dime. That is extremely disfunctional thinking. If you and your wife want to make sure that your inheritance or part of it only goes to assist people on your side of the family, you can decide together set up a trust fund for that purpose and then the lines are clear.

As for dealing with either side of the family that has expectations or disagrees with the values and choices you and your wife make together, it simply is not their call or choice (except for actual obligations you have to them, like paying back your wife's loans; very bad form to reneg on that).

When you are invited to a vacation or dinner, go in knowing what the others expect in terms of payment as you would with anyone, and accept or not knowing ahead what you will have to pay.

Before accepting an invite, discuss it. Before paying for a nephew's education or a parent's car repair, discuss it and come to an agreement with each other as spouses. None of that should be automatic on your part.

[Anonymous]

FIL is getting his payback by having son in law pay for trips and vacations. He's not stupid. He's not going to be stiffed by his daughter and family and then foot the bill for them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

OP said it himself that he feels like his extended family is subsidizing, because he doesn't have enough of his own money. Imagine being an adult and fretting about a dinner out because you don't have your own money.

I believe he said his family was subsidizing because they put him through undergraduate and medical school debt free, bought him a house, and he's already received some inheritance. He has money. No debt. He's believes paying his share of a vacation or meal with his in-laws, using his salary, is using money he has only because his parents have contributed so much. He could be the one with huge educational debt instead of his wife, but for the fact his parents paid for him. He can only afford to go on these vacations because he doesn't have to pay student loans ( or mortgage?) out of his salary.

That's how money works. When you use it for one thing you have less for another. If he doesn't want to go on vacation then he can just say no but he's so used to having all his bills paid by parents it's uncomfortable to have to open that wallet once in awhile.

I agree OP doesn't have to do these things. OP says wife feels caught in the middle. My best guess is OP resents paying for these vacations rather than saving the money to pay it forward. But that's just a guess.

Completely agree with PP calling out different value systems between families.

Right. PP doesn't get it. Both families have wildly different priorities. He doesn't want to use the money so he can pass it down.

You're responding to my post. I'm really wondering about the priorities of the FIL. There is a lot of speculation. I'm wondering if FIL is concerned about his daughter's long term financial well-being. Is she on deed to the house OP's family bought? Is OP keeping iinheritances separate from marital funds? Is she truly impoverished as a PP suggested? Maybe FIL is putting money aside for daughter in case she needs it. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in the story.

[Anonymous]

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- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

100% The fact that they still funded it with 0% interest means that they were willing to support her but wanted her to understand what her choices meant. That's on her.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you should spend it on something that has low ROI. That's not a good use of money, and the FIL knows that.

As a blue collar worker who built up his own wealth, he's given her the means to do the same, but she's chosen a different path.

You, OP, don't know what it's like to not be wealthy and build up your wealth on your own. You come across as an elitist snob.

Ok but he was setting up his own daughter to fail- $200k loan knowing shw was going into a non-lucrative career just to make a point? I'm sorry but that's crummy parenting, there were way better ways to handle this. No wonder she felt like she had to marry the douchebag OP.

Whether or not you think it was a nice thing for a parent to do is not relevent to whether the OP was wrong in renegging on a his wife's debt.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Blue collar boomers assume all physicians are very wealthy. FIL sees his SIL as having deep pockets and being blue collar expects the deep pocket guy to pay. It’s a scarcity mindset. Even though FIL has unexpectedly made a lot of money, he doesn’t want to share it and he wants others to give him more money. Generational wealth building is something very foreign to him. FIL would probably also love to get his fingers into some of the OPs parents’ money.

FIL may also lose his money or not be as solidly wealthy as he lets on. If he is a tradesman who became a contractor, he could very well blow up at some point. Real estate developers who can come from blue or white collar backgrounds often skate between being worth millions and being bankrupt. If he’s built a successful plumbing or HVAC company and sells to PE he could make a lot but then invests it poorly with a developer friend where he could lose it.

OP is wealthy.

So is FIL.

Everyone is mocking the wife's usless degree as a probable justification for why her father wants her to pay the money back but did OP even say what the degree was? Because relative to his career as a physician I'm sure everything seems low paying.

Regardless of what the undergrad degree is in, by OP's admission, she is going to get a masters in an area that is low pay. So, she is making one bad decision after another knowing that she would not be able to pay her father back like she promised she would.

OP is an elitist who thinks how he uses his wealth is the right way (look at me, aren't I great for helping my extended family), and the FIL is a tightwad a$$ (who made his wealth rather than inherited it) for expecting his daughter to pay back money she agreed to.

OP's wife is kind of an idiot and a leech for expecting the men in her life to keep subsidizing her so she can do whatever she wants. If she weren't married to a rich man, how would she pay back the loan and get a masters in a low paying field?

FIL is a bit harsh, but he built his wealth by himself and knows how hard it is to make that money. IMO, him letting his daughter pay back the loan with no interest and no maturity date signals to me that this isn't about money but about teaching his adult daughter the value of money and the consequences of her choices. Seems to me that she has yet to learn that lesson.

As for the expensive dinners and trips, OP can say no, but why should FIL subsidize OP's choice in using his wealth to help his extended family members (while kind), and then OP turns around and says to the FIL that they will no longer be paying the debt owed.

OP here. I am not providing financial help to my family. They do not need it. I have obtained prestigious research internships and gotten their names on publications for when they apply to medical school. I also help elderly family members with managing their affairs - I work 0.8 FTE to make time for this.

I don’t consider my wife’s degree useless. I encouraged her to go back school and if she wants to stay at home after school I am happy with that as well.

Ultimately, I find my FIL’s stinginess embarrassing. He has a mid eight figure net worth and is still a poor tipper. He will gobble up all the bread at the table. In my family we are generous with our time, money, and other resources. FIL has the opposite mindset. If he were less fortunate I would happily pay for his dinner and vacation. I paid for the last semester of college for a friend who is in a tough spot so I consider myself very charitable. But, a wealthy old man who is stingy with their own family and the less fortunate will never receive money from me.

This is shady. Possibly fraudulent. I wouldn't share this with anyone if I were you.

Shady, and not as generous as he claims.

[Anonymous]

I'm from an UMC pay it forward family. It's common to get no paperwork, 0 interest loans, from family. There's an expectation the borrowers are paying it back barring unforeseen circumstances. When family debts aren't honored, it can impact various family relationships for several generations. It's bad.

Many are speculating FIL put wife in untenable position by not paying for college when he could afford to do so. It doesn't seem to me we have enough information to really know what happened there. Like other posters, I could argue he thought it was a ridiculous expense, couldn't argue her out of it and agreed to loan as a financial lesson. And like other posters, I assumed he would forgive loan or bank the repayment for her. Who know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP's problem he is actually broke. He thinks about all his in terms of his family's money because he doesn't have any of his own money that he can decide how he wants to spend. He's basically a trust fund brat.

I think you have it backwards. She's broke. She doesn't have a job, and owes debt to her father. He has a job and didn't say he has debt.

He feels guilty that he was given everything to get his start in life while he knows his FIL worked very, very hard for everything he has. He’s never had to do any true hard work and he knows he can never compare to his FIL in that respect.

He literally said that was his family's MO to pass down money through the generations, so no OP doesn't feel guilty. That's some fantasy writing. The only thing backwards is OP thinking that his wife is owed something from her father. The more he changes his thinking to "she is broke and in debt and will not receive an inheritance," the better.

The OP values family and generosity. His FIL values self and disavows handouts, even for family. They don't have a value match.

Just because OP doesn’t realize that he feels guilty doesn’t mean he doesn’t. It’s embarrassing to have to compare yourself to someone who worked hard for everything he has and realize that you were handed everything by your parents and grandparents. Being around a man like his FIL is uncomfortable for him and he’s looking for ways to blame his FIL for his own inner feelings of inadequacy. He’d never admit that that is how he feels, but it’s pretty obvious from his writing.

Yeah, not buying it. Generosity is typically hardwired. I don't think it's obvious from his writing at all that he's harboring jealous fantasies. There's a lot of rich @ssholes around who are "self-made" that people don't envy. Also, I'm sure it would be hard to see your DW not having a lot of support from the family. He's not used that, so it's probably jarring.

He may be immature, but I don't buy the jealousy at all. Nor, do I spy this in his OP.

Helping family members to get ahead by cheating and using nepotism isn’t exactly endearing or a sign of integrity.