Is the line between "courtship" and harassment really that blurry?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
so who cares if a woman is more willing to talk to an attractive man? does she not get to decide who she talks to?

Standards of what constitutes harassment shouldn't hinge on your level of attractiveness with more restrictive standards of behavior imposed on people simply because they're unattractive. That doesn't mean women should have to date ugly guys, but it seems a little arbitrary to say that a man has behaved badly initiating a social encounter because he's ugly when you wouldn't characterize the exact same behavior the same way if the guy happened to be attractive.

I hear the pain behind your post, and suggest that women aren’t avoiding you because of your physical appearance. They are avoiding you because of your social ineptitude and the fact that you are likely a boor.

I am not goodlooking. I am male, middle aged, and overweight. I will talk to people independent of their attractiveness. But, only if they want to talk to me. If I know them, I will say hi. If I don't, I might banter if they are otherwise not occupied. If they ignore me (or do not respond), I have two options: I can walk away, or I can keep pestering them. One thing that makes it easier for me is I just assume no woman other than my wife wants to sleep with me. If I am wrong, so be it. But, unless she hits me over the head with something telling me yes, I avoid it.

It as worked for me since puberty.

by "people" do you mean all people? or attractive young women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:be safe - don't do or say anything at work. don't be alone with a woman

Or rather, treat women as equals and don’t be an a$$hole.

that's not enough for guys. men simply cannot take that chance. at the moment, work environment is turning into "you are guilty until proven innocent".

Then don’t. You may or may not notice women have been bribing along a third person VALIDLY FOR THEIR SAFETY for years. Welcome to reality. But don’t blame the women - blame your bro friends who don’t know how to be polite.

it's not about being polite. you get that right?

[Anonymous]

I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
so who cares if a woman is more willing to talk to an attractive man? does she not get to decide who she talks to?

Standards of what constitutes harassment shouldn't hinge on your level of attractiveness with more restrictive standards of behavior imposed on people simply because they're unattractive. That doesn't mean women should have to date ugly guys, but it seems a little arbitrary to say that a man has behaved badly initiating a social encounter because he's ugly when you wouldn't characterize the exact same behavior the same way if the guy happened to be attractive.

I hear the pain behind your post, and suggest that women aren’t avoiding you because of your physical appearance. They are avoiding you because of your social ineptitude and the fact that you are likely a boor.

I'm the PP who wrote this. There is no pain. I've been married for decades, haven't tried to hit on anyone but my wife since then, and am pretty indifferent to strangers. I'm friendly to people who engage me but don't initiate a lot of contact with others. So, this is mostly academic for me. I just think that the propriety of initial contact shouldn't be different depending on how you look. If it's a situation where there should be no initial contact, that should be true whether you're good looking or not. Once there is initial contact you either continue to engage or not depending on whether that contact is welcomed or not. Probably pretty people are going to find people more welcoming than ugly people. That's just the way it goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

#1 is so not clear. I love to read, write and draw in public -- coffee shop, bar, park, etc. Sometimes, I want to focus without talking with random people, and I will say so, but I have met the most interesting people that way. It is a great way to meet people outside the usual circle. Sometime I just like feeling the energy of a place. The difference is like watching a game/performance on TV versus watching a game/performance in person.

[Anonymous]

If you are a hiring manager, just hire women. Nothing but trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

'
'
You know what's not friendly? Not listening.

PEOPLE.DO.NOT.ALWAYS.WELCOME.COMMENTS.ABOUT.THEIR.BODIES.

P.S. People don't need your comments to feel good about themselves. I know you think you are doing some heroic service to the world, but really you're not. When you compliment people's appearance, you just reinforce the idea that appearances are important. They are not.

PP do you support dress codes? Are they releasing in a world where appearances should not matter? I'm guessing you do not speak to people you find unattractive, but believe that you should not be judged on how you look.

[Anonymous]

^^ releasing = relevant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And if you're not telling Fred that his mustache looks great, you should not be telling Frieda that you like her haircut.

Also, FWIW, if Fred has a new 'tache, I'd definitely tell him it looks good. But apparently, you think I should never do that either.

18:21 responding to my own comment to make sure the context is complete.

Just so we're clear, I'm the PP who posted many pages ago that I'm much freer with my compliments of male co-workers than female co-workers. I'd readily compliment Fred on his 'tache, his shoes, his pants, his tie, his weight loss, his haircut, etc. For me, because of concern about workplace standards, I essentially refuse to acknowledge female co-workers exist below the neck. I don't look at them below the neck, and I never comment in any way on anything below the neck. I'll compliment a female co-worker's new haircut and maybe her earrings, but nothing else appearance-wise.

I know you and some others want to paint me as some obtuse lech. In reality, I'm a social guy who thinks the world is a better place when people feel good about themselves. So I hand out compliments and kind words constantly. Most of the compliments are about how people handle projects or other things, but I'm not shy about complimenting appearances either. Friendly comments like that are just how my mother raised me.

'
'
You know what's not friendly? Not listening.

PEOPLE.DO.NOT.ALWAYS.WELCOME.COMMENTS.ABOUT.THEIR.BODIES.

P.S. People don't need your comments to feel good about themselves. I know you think you are doing some heroic service to the world, but really you're not. When you compliment people's appearance, you just reinforce the idea that appearances are important. They are not.

PP do you support dress codes? Are they releasing in a world where appearances should not matter? I'm guessing you do not speak to people you find unattractive, but believe that you should not be judged on how you look.

Dress codes are not relevant; I don't support them.

I don't choose whom to speak to on the basis of their appearance.

I don't believe people should be judged on appearances. Therfore, commenting on appearances is irrelevant and unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
so who cares if a woman is more willing to talk to an attractive man? does she not get to decide who she talks to?

Standards of what constitutes harassment shouldn't hinge on your level of attractiveness with more restrictive standards of behavior imposed on people simply because they're unattractive. That doesn't mean women should have to date ugly guys, but it seems a little arbitrary to say that a man has behaved badly initiating a social encounter because he's ugly when you wouldn't characterize the exact same behavior the same way if the guy happened to be attractive.

I hear the pain behind your post, and suggest that women aren’t avoiding you because of your physical appearance. They are avoiding you because of your social ineptitude and the fact that you are likely a boor.

I am not goodlooking. I am male, middle aged, and overweight. I will talk to people independent of their attractiveness. But, only if they want to talk to me. If I know them, I will say hi. If I don't, I might banter if they are otherwise not occupied. If they ignore me (or do not respond), I have two options: I can walk away, or I can keep pestering them. One thing that makes it easier for me is I just assume no woman other than my wife wants to sleep with me. If I am wrong, so be it. But, unless she hits me over the head with something telling me yes, I avoid it.

It as worked for me since puberty.

by "people" do you mean all people? or attractive young women?

I mean people. I talk to anyone that looks receptive. I like talking to people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

Stop whining. Jesus, I'm tired of men playing the intentional idiot so they don't have to lessen their sense of entitlement.

DON'T TOUCH PEOPLE WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION. WHEN THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED, F--KING LISTEN. THESE RULES DON'T CHANGE "ON A WHIM."

It's not hard. It only requires not being a tool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making this too complicated.

1) If a person is preoccupied with something, the are not looking to talk. Stranger reading a book/paper/phone, leave them alone.

2) If someone says no, ignores you, or whatever, leave them alone.

3) Do not touch anyone you don't have permission to touch. This goes doubly so for the private parts.

The above applies to men or women.

Note: rule 1 mostly applies to strangers. If you see someone you know, you can say hi.

2 & 3 are spot on. Not sure I’ve ever see strangers in public that are not preoccupied? If you don’t want strangers to meet in public places, just say so.

#1is also clear, and this seems to be the one where all you posters seem to be being the most obtuse. Is the person doing something else, like reading a book/paper/using a laptop/staring blankly into space? Leave them alone. Making continued or frequent eye contact with you, chatting and smiling? Yeah, then you can approach.

Simple rule - if you don’t get eye contact and at least a smile, just leave them to do what they’re doing.

#1 is so not clear. I love to read, write and draw in public -- coffee shop, bar, park, etc. Sometimes, I want to focus without talking with random people, and I will say so, but I have met the most interesting people that way. It is a great way to meet people outside the usual circle. Sometime I just like feeling the energy of a place. The difference is like watching a game/performance on TV versus watching a game/performance in person.

I am the pp (and have responded a few other times). So, you would be ok with me saying I asking about what you are drawing? I am not going to hit on you. I just find people interesting. Or at least most people interesting. The bigger issue is people not taking no for an answer. I do not care what circumstance, no is no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

I know for me, someone who is not shy but is extremely afraid of rejection, I will not proposition a woman, ask her out or anything else, unless I know the answer. Particularly if she is attractive. What finally worked for me was internet dating. I got to know people; I knew they found me interesting, and was more willing to ask out (and the answer was universally yes).

I respect other people -- well most people. As people. My goal is learn more (and more about you) first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're thinking about doing something to a woman, ask yourself -- how might a guy friend react if I did that to him?

In other words, before you leer at Joanne and tell her you like her blouse, ask yourself how Joe would react if you did that to him. Before you send Joanne a 'toy' and a note about how you'd like to use it, ask yourself how Joe would respond if you did that to him. Before you lock joanne in your office and force yourself on her . .. . You get that picture.

We're just like your guy friends only prettier.

Another good rule of thumb is: would you say or do that to someone who had the power to fire you?

Men figure out how to negotiate consent in all other areas of their lives. This is not rocket science. Instead of thinking how close you can get to the line without getting in trouble, start thinking about the women you work with as actual human beings.

Yup. I had the same thought. This cluelessness is bull crap. Woman have always had to consider how things might be perceived and to be conscious of the situation but now that the expectation is for guys to do the same with women it’s PC run amok, what has the world come to that unwanted advances in the work place are considered unprofessional. Yet, the successful guys have always had that social awareness of appropriate when it comes to another guy in higher power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if people are honest, they realize that the paradigm of "men must chase women" is most of the problem. This has been the rule for generations. Men were expected to chase and be persistent about it. Otherwise, they were regarded as either wimps or gay. And that's not an exaggeration. Now it's suddenly changing to "men must chase women, but they must also follow increasingly stringent set of guidelines that can be altered at a whim." OK fine, don't pretend that things haven't changed. Things WERE different up until very recently. A lot of "bad" male behavior was socially expected up until very recently. Don't deny that the goal posts haven't been shifted.

The reality is that most men don't really even like having to "chase." They just do it because they have to. Some guys do like to chase. Those are probably the ones that are approaching you all the time. Trust me, 80% of men would prefer not to approach strange women or risk being viewed a creep. There just wasn't an alternative.

Maybe with the development of dating apps, men won't have to "chase" and then women won't have to deal with men approaching them all the time.

so it's women's fault for confusing men by making rape culture unacceptable?