Stopping caring saved my marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know that I really agree with this line of thinking. Maybe my husband is more..malleable than many men? I wouldn't have thought so but my take on this kind of thing is that bottom line, I don't take crap. I deserve to be treated a certain way and I am going to get that treatment.

When we were first married, he did that thing many men do where they go to the grocery store and came back with a bunch of junk. Unh uh, sorry, your ass is going back to the store to get the real food we need. And yes I will ridicule you because you deserve to be. Thirty years old and you can't scan the cupboards to see what we need? Fucking no. He leaves his dirty dishes by the sink for me to clean or whiskers in the sink? I'm not your fucking maid, this is unacceptable, clean them now before you go to work. You thought I was going to do all the night wakings and take care of the kid by myself while you "baby sit" some times? No fucking way, I will divorce your ass over this. You're going to tell me you'll do some house project so we don't have to waste money on hiring it out but then not do it? Yeah I will inform you how childish and irresponsible that type of behavior. I'm not going to play nice about bullshit like that. Point blank, if you want to be with me, you will treat me the way I want.

We've been married over ten years, together for 15, and I've basically turned him into the husband and father I wanted for myself and my children. Don't take crap, ladies. You're better than that.

You sound angry and unhappy.

I get angry on behalf of other women when I think about how overburdened we are compared to men when it comes to societal expectations. Cook, clean, keep house, be the perfect mother at all times, stay in tip top shape, lose the baby weight lickety split, put out every night, oh and work 50 hours a week in a demanding career. It is bullshit. We *should* expect our husbands to meet us halfway and, more importantly, *hold* them to that expectation.

This! PLUS all of the mental gymnastics: keeping track of where everyone is during the day and where they have to go, scheduling and attending play dates because you have to help your children cultivate friendships, dealing with the school and keeping track of all those details, keeping track of medical and dental appointments, even keeping tracks of seasonal changes to make the necessary adjustment to the children's wardrobes. Then add in all the default parenting. It's exhausting.

Please. Take some personal responsibility, and "drop the rope." Societal pressure (or pressure from MIL or DH or your dad or sister or whomever) can only affect you *if you let it.* I know society wants me to lose 20 pounds. Guess what? I love cheese and carbs, and I'm going to be the size that makes me feel healthy and happy and occasionally indulged. I know my husband wants me to bake more. Guess what? I make some banana bread when I feel like it, and the rest of the time, pass the store-bought cookies. Pinterest-obbsessed moms are all over my Facebook feed, with their Bento box lunches. So what? Sometimes I cut my DD's sandwich in the shape of a star if I feel like it; the rest of the time, she's got a pretty ordinary lunch. DCUM says I should be initiating sex every weekend. If I'm in the mood, great. If not, fine.

You can objectively look at the "mental gymnastics" arena, and decide what apparatus you are going to climb on, and which ones you are going to skip.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't know that I really agree with this line of thinking. Maybe my husband is more..malleable than many men? I wouldn't have thought so but my take on this kind of thing is that bottom line, I don't take crap. I deserve to be treated a certain way and I am going to get that treatment.

When we were first married, he did that thing many men do where they go to the grocery store and came back with a bunch of junk. Unh uh, sorry, your ass is going back to the store to get the real food we need. And yes I will ridicule you because you deserve to be. Thirty years old and you can't scan the cupboards to see what we need? Fucking no. He leaves his dirty dishes by the sink for me to clean or whiskers in the sink? I'm not your fucking maid, this is unacceptable, clean them now before you go to work. You thought I was going to do all the night wakings and take care of the kid by myself while you "baby sit" some times? No fucking way, I will divorce your ass over this. You're going to tell me you'll do some house project so we don't have to waste money on hiring it out but then not do it? Yeah I will inform you how childish and irresponsible that type of behavior. I'm not going to play nice about bullshit like that. Point blank, if you want to be with me, you will treat me the way I want.

We've been married over ten years, together for 15, and I've basically turned him into the husband and father I wanted for myself and my children. Don't take crap, ladies. You're better than that.

And what about how your husband would like to be treated? Is it okay for him to ridicule you when you deserve it?

Great work finding a man with no backbone who allows himself to be turned into what you want. It's clearly what you need. I would have divorced your ass a long time ago with the treatment you've outlined above. Very VERY few men want a wife like you, so stick with your doormat, PP.

New Poster here. Perhaps they have a relationship where they tease each other and banter? It's interesting to me how some people are reacting to this post. While I wouldn't put it in quite the same language, I generally agree with what she is saying. It's true that societal expectations differ greatly for men and women so women have to really hold their husbands to their early promises to be an equal partner. Expect your husband to be a 50/50 partner in your household and family and he will rise to the occasion if he wants to be with you. Lower your standards and, unfortunately, many men will subsequently lower theirs. I do agree with the above PPs that some of this advice tacitly condones men's bad behavior and sets women back generally. I would not put up with a lot of the behavior mentioned throughout this thread and I would not advise anyone else to either.

+1000. Another NP. Why is remotely problematic to expect one's spouse to be considerate and competent? PP considers a man to be "without backbone" because he is willing to, gasp, actually take care of his shit and perhaps even learn how to contribute to his family's life? A man who does groceries is a "doormat"?

So many PPs are tying themselves into knots trying to rationalize why *they* haven't had the backbone to create a fair, functional, harmonious partnership. Hint: It not by turning into an apathetic Stepford wife with (apparently) a filthy house to boot.

co-signed

I don't get it either.

[Anonymous]

The ONLY way this has worked out for my friends and me with a similar situation is to have a schedule set in stone - so he cooks dinner on Mondays an Thursdays and does bedtime on Tuesdays and Fridays. You do the opposite days - no trying to "share" duties and hope he helps - he's either on or he's off - and I am either on or off. Eventually, you can soften a bit, but for now - he needs to be 100% responsible so it happens.

This is basically what we do and much better advice than the self-abnegation and self-delusion preached above. Thankfully my DH isn't apparently entirely a "non-functional bump on a log," but left to his own devices, he would probably gradually turn into one. We generally alternate: stagger schedules, switch off bath-time, dinner clean up, bedtime for our two kids. The more routine and established the schedule the better--things get done with little or no friction. In fact, things are always worse on weekends and in period of transition when things are unclear and he reverts to the (his) mean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay OP and others, I have one more question about this approach. How do you not get mad at him? Let's say you feel like you do more and he's lazy. How are you able to just let things go and not feel resentful?

I rarely ever get mad like that, I just don't. If he doesn't think mowing the lawn is a priority, I do it when I DO think it is a priority, or pay somebody to do it. But, my DH isn't lazy. If you think of what he does as an extra, a bonus, the side dollop of whipped cream next to your lovely cake of life, well, you get to enjoy that whipped cream. But I don't count on him to do more around the house because I am the one who cares about it. I care if the floors are clean? I wash them. I care if the cars are washed? I wash them. If I care that the children wash their faces before they leave the house? I ask them to wash them. Because if DH doesn't care about it, he just doesn't. And "forcing" him to do it ... not a good strategy.

He SHOULD care about that stuff. He would if you were truly 50/50 partners. You are lowering your standards and settling for something second rate. I don't know why you would do that let alone advise someone else to. Bad idea.

+ 1

New Poster here. I agree. If it matters to you, it should matter to him. It's really that simple. The fact that it doesn't shows disrespect to you. If he truly cared about you, he wouldn't want you to run yourself ragged doing all this work for the family and house, he would *want* to help you in order to ease your burden. I really do not understand this thread. I'm getting the sense that there are a lot more "bad" marriages out there than I thought.

I think this is what it comes down to, ultimately. The women interjecting in here with their "I don't get it" or "I wouldn't put up with that" comments are not married to lazy, self involved jerks. So they really *don't* get it. They don't need to. They have husbands who either do all this stuff on their own without having to be asked or do it as soon as they are asked, no problem. If that is you, just be glad you don't get it. You're lucky you don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The ONLY way this has worked out for my friends and me with a similar situation is to have a schedule set in stone - so he cooks dinner on Mondays an Thursdays and does bedtime on Tuesdays and Fridays. You do the opposite days - no trying to "share" duties and hope he helps - he's either on or he's off - and I am either on or off. Eventually, you can soften a bit, but for now - he needs to be 100% responsible so it happens.

This is basically what we do and much better advice than the self-abnegation and self-delusion preached above. Thankfully my DH isn't apparently entirely a "non-functional bump on a log," but left to his own devices, he would probably gradually turn into one. We generally alternate: stagger schedules, switch off bath-time, dinner clean up, bedtime for our two kids. The more routine and established the schedule the better--things get done with little or no friction. In fact, things are always worse on weekends and in period of transition when things are unclear and he reverts to the (his) mean.

That's a good approach for some couples. I think the points raised in this thread are for couples who are fairly alienated and entrenched with one or both seething resentment. I think the thread proposes an interesting way to diffuse the energy and really pull back from the toxic situation. Anyway, these are the kinds of folks who are going to come to schedule without a lot of acrimony.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to incorporate elements of this but am buckling a little under the weight of I guess mourning what I thought was possible, realizing there is contempt from him towards me, missing sex and missing having interest in each other and our lives. He's also having a minor emotional affair and ...I want so badly to not care anymore. I can some days.

I am working on keeping myself busy and cultivating my own interests and networks. I know I can't change any of his actions or emotions and I don't try. Did you have a mourning period before not caring?

I don't think it is not caring. It is prioritizing yourself while including/being nice to spouse. Like the PP said, I'm making XX for dinner. Oh, you don't want it? I'm sorry, make yourself ZZ. But this isn't about not caring entirely. I'll make DH's favorites, too. This is about caring for yourself, doing the things you want, inviting your spouse, and allowing them the space to partake. He/she could do this to you, too. DH: I'd like to go bowling, do you want to come? Regardless of what my answer is, he gets to do what he wants. If I want to go, great, we have a good time. If I don't, that's OK, he can STILL have a good time.

If you made dinner though, it's just rude to say you don't like it or don't want it. That is disrespectful. That actually would hurt my feelings quite a bit. Not that he doesn't like the food but he can't even care enough about me to pretend in order to be courteous and polite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay OP and others, I have one more question about this approach. How do you not get mad at him? Let's say you feel like you do more and he's lazy. How are you able to just let things go and not feel resentful?

I rarely ever get mad like that, I just don't. If he doesn't think mowing the lawn is a priority, I do it when I DO think it is a priority, or pay somebody to do it. But, my DH isn't lazy. If you think of what he does as an extra, a bonus, the side dollop of whipped cream next to your lovely cake of life, well, you get to enjoy that whipped cream. But I don't count on him to do more around the house because I am the one who cares about it. I care if the floors are clean? I wash them. I care if the cars are washed? I wash them. If I care that the children wash their faces before they leave the house? I ask them to wash them. Because if DH doesn't care about it, he just doesn't. And "forcing" him to do it ... not a good strategy.

He SHOULD care about that stuff. He would if you were truly 50/50 partners. You are lowering your standards and settling for something second rate. I don't know why you would do that let alone advise someone else to. Bad idea.

+ 1

New Poster here. I agree. If it matters to you, it should matter to him. It's really that simple. The fact that it doesn't shows disrespect to you. If he truly cared about you, he wouldn't want you to run yourself ragged doing all this work for the family and house, he would *want* to help you in order to ease your burden. I really do not understand this thread. I'm getting the sense that there are a lot more "bad" marriages out there than I thought.

I think this is what it comes down to, ultimately. The women interjecting in here with their "I don't get it" or "I wouldn't put up with that" comments are not married to lazy, self involved jerks. So they really *don't* get it. They don't need to. They have husbands who either do all this stuff on their own without having to be asked or do it as soon as they are asked, no problem. If that is you, just be glad you don't get it. You're lucky you don't.

It's not "luck" not to marry or stay with a completely selfish man-baby. That is a CHOICE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay OP and others, I have one more question about this approach. How do you not get mad at him? Let's say you feel like you do more and he's lazy. How are you able to just let things go and not feel resentful?

I rarely ever get mad like that, I just don't. If he doesn't think mowing the lawn is a priority, I do it when I DO think it is a priority, or pay somebody to do it. But, my DH isn't lazy. If you think of what he does as an extra, a bonus, the side dollop of whipped cream next to your lovely cake of life, well, you get to enjoy that whipped cream. But I don't count on him to do more around the house because I am the one who cares about it. I care if the floors are clean? I wash them. I care if the cars are washed? I wash them. If I care that the children wash their faces before they leave the house? I ask them to wash them. Because if DH doesn't care about it, he just doesn't. And "forcing" him to do it ... not a good strategy.

He SHOULD care about that stuff. He would if you were truly 50/50 partners. You are lowering your standards and settling for something second rate. I don't know why you would do that let alone advise someone else to. Bad idea.

+ 1

New Poster here. I agree. If it matters to you, it should matter to him. It's really that simple. The fact that it doesn't shows disrespect to you. If he truly cared about you, he wouldn't want you to run yourself ragged doing all this work for the family and house, he would *want* to help you in order to ease your burden. I really do not understand this thread. I'm getting the sense that there are a lot more "bad" marriages out there than I thought.

I think this is what it comes down to, ultimately. The women interjecting in here with their "I don't get it" or "I wouldn't put up with that" comments are not married to lazy, self involved jerks. So they really *don't* get it. They don't need to. They have husbands who either do all this stuff on their own without having to be asked or do it as soon as they are asked, no problem. If that is you, just be glad you don't get it. You're lucky you don't.

It's not "luck" not to marry or stay with a completely selfish man-baby. That is a CHOICE.

BS. You can do everything right and still find out your DH sucks once you have children. I don't care what you smug people say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to incorporate elements of this but am buckling a little under the weight of I guess mourning what I thought was possible, realizing there is contempt from him towards me, missing sex and missing having interest in each other and our lives. He's also having a minor emotional affair and ...I want so badly to not care anymore. I can some days.

I am working on keeping myself busy and cultivating my own interests and networks. I know I can't change any of his actions or emotions and I don't try. Did you have a mourning period before not caring?

I don't think it is not caring. It is prioritizing yourself while including/being nice to spouse. Like the PP said, I'm making XX for dinner. Oh, you don't want it? I'm sorry, make yourself ZZ. But this isn't about not caring entirely. I'll make DH's favorites, too. This is about caring for yourself, doing the things you want, inviting your spouse, and allowing them the space to partake. He/she could do this to you, too. DH: I'd like to go bowling, do you want to come? Regardless of what my answer is, he gets to do what he wants. If I want to go, great, we have a good time. If I don't, that's OK, he can STILL have a good time.

If you made dinner though, it's just rude to say you don't like it or don't want it. That is disrespectful. That actually would hurt my feelings quite a bit. Not that he doesn't like the food but he can't even care enough about me to pretend in order to be courteous and polite?

my husband will just eat cereal if he doesn't like it. it's annoying if i've put effort into dinner (blue apron or the like) but whatever. it's small on the list of crap i deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay OP and others, I have one more question about this approach. How do you not get mad at him? Let's say you feel like you do more and he's lazy. How are you able to just let things go and not feel resentful?

I rarely ever get mad like that, I just don't. If he doesn't think mowing the lawn is a priority, I do it when I DO think it is a priority, or pay somebody to do it. But, my DH isn't lazy. If you think of what he does as an extra, a bonus, the side dollop of whipped cream next to your lovely cake of life, well, you get to enjoy that whipped cream. But I don't count on him to do more around the house because I am the one who cares about it. I care if the floors are clean? I wash them. I care if the cars are washed? I wash them. If I care that the children wash their faces before they leave the house? I ask them to wash them. Because if DH doesn't care about it, he just doesn't. And "forcing" him to do it ... not a good strategy.

He SHOULD care about that stuff. He would if you were truly 50/50 partners. You are lowering your standards and settling for something second rate. I don't know why you would do that let alone advise someone else to. Bad idea.

+ 1

New Poster here. I agree. If it matters to you, it should matter to him. It's really that simple. The fact that it doesn't shows disrespect to you. If he truly cared about you, he wouldn't want you to run yourself ragged doing all this work for the family and house, he would *want* to help you in order to ease your burden. I really do not understand this thread. I'm getting the sense that there are a lot more "bad" marriages out there than I thought.

I think this is what it comes down to, ultimately. The women interjecting in here with their "I don't get it" or "I wouldn't put up with that" comments are not married to lazy, self involved jerks. So they really *don't* get it. They don't need to. They have husbands who either do all this stuff on their own without having to be asked or do it as soon as they are asked, no problem. If that is you, just be glad you don't get it. You're lucky you don't.

It's not "luck" not to marry or stay with a completely selfish man-baby. That is a CHOICE.

BS. You can do everything right and still find out your DH sucks once you have children. I don't care what you smug people say.

Live your choices.

[Anonymous]

The ONLY way this has worked out for my friends and me with a similar situation is to have a schedule set in stone - so he cooks dinner on Mondays an Thursdays and does bedtime on Tuesdays and Fridays. You do the opposite days - no trying to "share" duties and hope he helps - he's either on or he's off - and I am either on or off. Eventually, you can soften a bit, but for now - he needs to be 100% responsible so it happens.

This is basically what we do and much better advice than the self-abnegation and self-delusion preached above. Thankfully my DH isn't apparently entirely a "non-functional bump on a log," but left to his own devices, he would probably gradually turn into one. We generally alternate: stagger schedules, switch off bath-time, dinner clean up, bedtime for our two kids. The more routine and established the schedule the better--things get done with little or no friction. In fact, things are always worse on weekends and in period of transition when things are unclear and he reverts to the (his) mean.

That's a good approach for some couples. I think the points raised in this thread are for couples who are fairly alienated and entrenched with one or both seething resentment. I think the thread proposes an interesting way to diffuse the energy and really pull back from the toxic situation. Anyway, these are the kinds of folks who are going to come to schedule without a lot of acrimony.

I agree/disagree. I think the thread was interesting when discussing how to end the dynamic where one spouse is too much of a people-pleaser and is too invested in getting acknowledgement/agreement from their spouse. E.g. If you are making dinner, should you really care whether your spouse *loves* it and compliments it? Where it went off the rails was when this insight morphed into: forget about emotional validation, you should not care about the fact that your spouse does nothing at all! E.g. You have to make dinner all the time, and you should not care whether your spouse ever reciprocates or contributes at all. The first insight may be valuable, the second seems incredibly unhealthy and self-destructive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay OP and others, I have one more question about this approach. How do you not get mad at him? Let's say you feel like you do more and he's lazy. How are you able to just let things go and not feel resentful?

I rarely ever get mad like that, I just don't. If he doesn't think mowing the lawn is a priority, I do it when I DO think it is a priority, or pay somebody to do it. But, my DH isn't lazy. If you think of what he does as an extra, a bonus, the side dollop of whipped cream next to your lovely cake of life, well, you get to enjoy that whipped cream. But I don't count on him to do more around the house because I am the one who cares about it. I care if the floors are clean? I wash them. I care if the cars are washed? I wash them. If I care that the children wash their faces before they leave the house? I ask them to wash them. Because if DH doesn't care about it, he just doesn't. And "forcing" him to do it ... not a good strategy.

He SHOULD care about that stuff. He would if you were truly 50/50 partners. You are lowering your standards and settling for something second rate. I don't know why you would do that let alone advise someone else to. Bad idea.

+ 1

New Poster here. I agree. If it matters to you, it should matter to him. It's really that simple. The fact that it doesn't shows disrespect to you. If he truly cared about you, he wouldn't want you to run yourself ragged doing all this work for the family and house, he would *want* to help you in order to ease your burden. I really do not understand this thread. I'm getting the sense that there are a lot more "bad" marriages out there than I thought.

I think this is what it comes down to, ultimately. The women interjecting in here with their "I don't get it" or "I wouldn't put up with that" comments are not married to lazy, self involved jerks. So they really *don't* get it. They don't need to. They have husbands who either do all this stuff on their own without having to be asked or do it as soon as they are asked, no problem. If that is you, just be glad you don't get it. You're lucky you don't.

It's not "luck" not to marry or stay with a completely selfish man-baby. That is a CHOICE.

BS. You can do everything right and still find out your DH sucks once you have children. I don't care what you smug people say.

Live your choices.

We are living them. That's the point of this thread. Get off of it if you have nothing kind or meaningful to contribute.

[Anonymous]

I sat my DH down one night and told him that since we both work and have a 50/50 modern relationship that we need to work out who's responsible for what household stuff and what we're going to outsource. This allowed me to walk through all the things that someone has to do and I was surprised that when given a choice about what his responsibilities would be, he's actually stepped up and owned them since this conversation.

Prior to this I was doing everything and feeling really resentful. He essentially must have thought that a fairy made everything happen or that I "wanted" to do it all to control it (he actually said this when we were talking about it calmly).

Anyway, now I cook and he cleans up/loads and unloads the dishwasher every day. He's in charge of garbage, yardwork and lining up handymen/electricians/plumbers, etc. to fix things. I do laundry, grocery shopping and set up family appointments/calendar stuff. We have a cleaning service come in. Sometimes I have groceries delivered if things are hectic.

I stopped asking about his things or suggesting that he do them a certain way. I just let go of them and I've been surprised that he actually has taken ownership and does them without prompting (before this I felt like his mother pestering him to do things all the time. Like the OP, I also got to a point where I needed to prioritize myself. I set up lunches and dinners with friends, I do the things that are important to me. I don't get wrapped up in what he's doing anymore.

I think it worked because that conversation was like a negotiation and he actually now feels that he has some ownership in how smoothly our family and home run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The ONLY way this has worked out for my friends and me with a similar situation is to have a schedule set in stone - so he cooks dinner on Mondays an Thursdays and does bedtime on Tuesdays and Fridays. You do the opposite days - no trying to "share" duties and hope he helps - he's either on or he's off - and I am either on or off. Eventually, you can soften a bit, but for now - he needs to be 100% responsible so it happens.

This is basically what we do and much better advice than the self-abnegation and self-delusion preached above. Thankfully my DH isn't apparently entirely a "non-functional bump on a log," but left to his own devices, he would probably gradually turn into one. We generally alternate: stagger schedules, switch off bath-time, dinner clean up, bedtime for our two kids. The more routine and established the schedule the better--things get done with little or no friction. In fact, things are always worse on weekends and in period of transition when things are unclear and he reverts to the (his) mean.

That's a good approach for some couples. I think the points raised in this thread are for couples who are fairly alienated and entrenched with one or both seething resentment. I think the thread proposes an interesting way to diffuse the energy and really pull back from the toxic situation. Anyway, these are the kinds of folks who are going to come to schedule without a lot of acrimony.

I agree/disagree. I think the thread was interesting when discussing how to end the dynamic where one spouse is too much of a people-pleaser and is too invested in getting acknowledgement/agreement from their spouse. E.g. If you are making dinner, should you really care whether your spouse *loves* it and compliments it? Where it went off the rails was when this insight morphed into: forget about emotional validation, you should not care about the fact that your spouse does nothing at all! E.g. You have to make dinner all the time, and you should not care whether your spouse ever reciprocates or contributes at all. The first insight may be valuable, the second seems incredibly unhealthy and self-destructive.

OP here. I agree the thread went sideways. I mentioned multiple times that a big thing in my marriage is that we try to be cordial -- at the coworker level at a minimum -- when we are dealing with each other. But there is a lot of value in what people are sharing. I don't think you should be a doormat. But I think a lot of the resentment cycle can be broken for some people with the advice in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The ONLY way this has worked out for my friends and me with a similar situation is to have a schedule set in stone - so he cooks dinner on Mondays an Thursdays and does bedtime on Tuesdays and Fridays. You do the opposite days - no trying to "share" duties and hope he helps - he's either on or he's off - and I am either on or off. Eventually, you can soften a bit, but for now - he needs to be 100% responsible so it happens.

This is basically what we do and much better advice than the self-abnegation and self-delusion preached above. Thankfully my DH isn't apparently entirely a "non-functional bump on a log," but left to his own devices, he would probably gradually turn into one. We generally alternate: stagger schedules, switch off bath-time, dinner clean up, bedtime for our two kids. The more routine and established the schedule the better--things get done with little or no friction. In fact, things are always worse on weekends and in period of transition when things are unclear and he reverts to the (his) mean.

That's a good approach for some couples. I think the points raised in this thread are for couples who are fairly alienated and entrenched with one or both seething resentment. I think the thread proposes an interesting way to diffuse the energy and really pull back from the toxic situation. Anyway, these are the kinds of folks who are going to come to schedule without a lot of acrimony.

I agree/disagree. I think the thread was interesting when discussing how to end the dynamic where one spouse is too much of a people-pleaser and is too invested in getting acknowledgement/agreement from their spouse. E.g. If you are making dinner, should you really care whether your spouse *loves* it and compliments it? Where it went off the rails was when this insight morphed into: forget about emotional validation, you should not care about the fact that your spouse does nothing at all! E.g. You have to make dinner all the time, and you should not care whether your spouse ever reciprocates or contributes at all. The first insight may be valuable, the second seems incredibly unhealthy and self-destructive.

+ 1