Honest question for liberals about diversity/multiculturalism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

Our culture was lost. You may not like our culture, but to say that it is not lost is not true. And you took it by force, not by talking us politely out of it. And you are happy that you took it? It makes you feel righteous?

What force? By who? When? How? Please elaborate on all this. If you feel besieged in your mind please consult a psychiatrist. Nobody is responsible but you to what you imagine.

It's the same tired old imagined BS. It's stuff like the red and green Starbucks cup with the reindeers wasn't "Christmassy" enough. ZOMG! Let's freak out, let's have a whole series of segments on "The War on Christmas" and how every thing we know and love is under complete assault and how our entire culture is being utterly destroyed by the vast invading hordes of unwashed devil worshipping communist gay atheist Kenyan Muslims or something. It's like how the same gold brocade curtains that have hung in the White House since the 70s suddenly magically became "Muslim Prayer Curtains" the moment Obama moved into office. TREASON! OUTRAGE!

[Anonymous]

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

Great, because you put your kids in a 50% FARMS school, Bethesda doesn't exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

Our culture was lost. You may not like our culture, but to say that it is not lost is not true. And you took it by force, not by talking us politely out of it. And you are happy that you took it? It makes you feel righteous?

What force? By who? When? How? Please elaborate on all this. If you feel besieged in your mind please consult a psychiatrist. Nobody is responsible but you to what you imagine.

It's the same tired old imagined BS. It's stuff like the red and green Starbucks cup with the reindeers wasn't "Christmassy" enough. ZOMG! Let's freak out, let's have a whole series of segments on "The War on Christmas" and how every thing we know and love is under complete assault and how our entire culture is being utterly destroyed by the vast invading hordes of unwashed devil worshipping communist gay atheist Kenyan Muslims or something. It's like how the same gold brocade curtains that have hung in the White House since the 70s suddenly magically became "Muslim Prayer Curtains" the moment Obama moved into office. TREASON! OUTRAGE!

And you have the gumption to talk about respect. You get what you give. Please show what you wrote to your grandson, son, co-worker or your manager at work. If you think you cant show or ashamed of, then you know who is discriminating. Go ahead stay true and honest and try this. You need to see yourself in the mirror.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

Our culture was lost. You may not like our culture, but to say that it is not lost is not true. And you took it by force, not by talking us politely out of it. And you are happy that you took it? It makes you feel righteous?

What force? By who? When? How? Please elaborate on all this. If you feel besieged in your mind please consult a psychiatrist. Nobody is responsible but you to what you imagine.

It's the same tired old imagined BS. It's stuff like the red and green Starbucks cup with the reindeers wasn't "Christmassy" enough. ZOMG! Let's freak out, let's have a whole series of segments on "The War on Christmas" and how every thing we know and love is under complete assault and how our entire culture is being utterly destroyed by the vast invading hordes of unwashed devil worshipping communist gay atheist Kenyan Muslims or something. It's like how the same gold brocade curtains that have hung in the White House since the 70s suddenly magically became "Muslim Prayer Curtains" the moment Obama moved into office. TREASON! OUTRAGE!

And you have the gumption to talk about respect. You get what you give. Please show what you wrote to your grandson, son, co-worker or your manager at work. If you think you cant show or ashamed of, then you know who is discriminating. Go ahead stay true and honest and try this. You need to see yourself in the mirror.

Sorry I jumped the gun. Apologies. I didn't read it fully. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

Well good.

Then please don't insult other liberals by automatically assuming we aren't and worse yet, leaping straight to accusing us of hypocrisy. Especially when we all know that less-liberal leaning folks are far less interested in diversity than we are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

Well good.

Then please don't insult other liberals by automatically assuming we aren't and worse yet, leaping straight to accusing us of hypocrisy. Especially when we all know that less-liberal leaning folks are far less interested in diversity than we are.

If you are a white liberal in a HRC or living in Bethesda, then I don't see how you can tell yourself you are living your values. Just because mouth breathing racists are worse than you, doesn't make you virtuous. It just makes you better than them. Great. You are less (openly) racist than a Trump supporter. But unless you are actively living your values, the only thing you are doing is voting for the right things. Necessary but not sufficient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I liked your first post but today there are educational opportunities beginning with pre K in public schools but still great disparities in achievement. One fellow [central american] told me when in K-12 he did not take advantage of his opportunities [HS in eastern FX county] and many friends ruined their lives with gang affiliation etc. stated should have applied himself and could have been engineer-felt somewhat caught up since was licensed master tradesman.

So absurd that many get to check Hispanic box when are from highly educated families etc. There were no Polish check boxes in 1915. Virtually no ESL-my dad and family really mastered English immersion style. What we do need to do is bring back manufacturing and tech related stuff. Get the call centers out of ie India and in places like DC and Philly and Baltimore.

With respect to your acquaintance who joined a gang, this problem isn't unique to recent immigrants or Latinos, as I'm sure you know...so I'm not sure what it has to do with immigration.

I don't have a strong opinion on offering affirmative action to people from rich families based on their ethnicity (and being first-generation American born to Indian immigrants, if anything I truly am subject to reverse discrimination by schools though it didn't stop me from being admitted to the best ones), but the rest of the stuff you are talking about makes very little sense.

There are still tons of tech-related jobs in the US, but it's true that some are migrating overseas due to lower costs. Maybe lower-paid immigrants on H1B visas are replacing Americans in US-based offices, but increasingly you are also seeing Indians in India who work remotely (enabled by the internet) and earn even less than H1B holders in the US. Same with call centers. Are you proposing making a law that says US companies can't use the internet or foreign contractors? And while I would love to see more traditional manufacturing back in the US, it isn't going to happen. Newer forms of manufacturing, like 3D printing, are happening here...but they provide many fewer jobs.

I think the reality is that the average American worker was always going to be the material loser from globalization, if you define losing as a contraction in job opportunities. We had way more high-paying jobs than almost anywhere else in the world. That was going to happen with or without NAFTA, and you could argue that NAFTA (and the agreements that followed) made the transition to globalization easier than it would otherwise would have been. US corporations were going to globalize...there is no credible way to dispute that. If labor is a substantial cost, you are going to do what you can to find cheaper labor. At best we can try to impose steep tariffs to make foreign-manufactured goods too expensive for US consumers, but in my own view all that will do is create a black market for cheaper imported goods smuggled into the US. You cannot isolate yourself in a world where you can have a face-to-face (over video) call with someone at almost any time of day and almost anywhere on the planet.

That acquaintance stressed that he should have used his educational opportunities and too many fell into gangs etc. Central American immigrants. You are missing the point on the call centers. Why should we be calling amex travel and get India? Have to request the US call center and be transferred? Why not employ our own people in our cities? Why send 100% of calls outside the USA for some companies? No reason. Enough people here need jobs.

Tough for the Indian call center industry.

[Anonymous]

And people would work the night shift. I worked a night shift as a waitress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If you are a white liberal in a HRC or living in Bethesda, then I don't see how you can tell yourself you are living your values. Just because mouth breathing racists are worse than you, doesn't make you virtuous. It just makes you better than them. Great. You are less (openly) racist than a Trump supporter. But unless you are actively living your values, the only thing you are doing is voting for the right things. Necessary but not sufficient.

Wait, what if you are a white liberal who lives in Bethesda because that's where you work and living there means you can bike to work? Does your commitment to the environment cancel out your bigoted?? choice to live in Bethesda?

Look, most people are trying to do the best they can for their families. I think it's more complicated than just saying they should be willing to live in poorly rated school districts that happen to be more diverse in order to avoid being called a hypocrite for not condoning racism. And before you attack me, I'm neither white nor do I live in Bethesda or any other highly rated, affluent, and mostly white school district (the opposite actually).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That acquaintance stressed that he should have used his educational opportunities and too many fell into gangs etc. Central American immigrants. You are missing the point on the call centers. Why should we be calling amex travel and get India? Have to request the US call center and be transferred? Why not employ our own people in our cities? Why send 100% of calls outside the USA for some companies? No reason. Enough people here need jobs.

Tough for the Indian call center industry.

I don't work for American Express, but off the top of my head I would guess it's because the Indian call center workers are cheaper than American ones. I'm not condoning it or not, I'm just saying that outsourcing has nothing to do with diversity. But if your beef is with AmEx, you can complain as a customer. If enough people did that, maybe they would revert to American call centers. At the same time, their CC perks might go down or their interest rates might go up...so if you're willing to accept that you could maybe get what you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bottom line is that there is nothing whatsoever in religion that gives you the right to be bigoted toward gay people, or to deny them goods or services. You may think they are sinners in your own eyes, and that's your prerogative but even in your own faith, if you are Christian, it's their sin it's not for you to judge on, and given they have done no wrong to you, stop acting as though they have.

Question: if a Muslim baker denies a gay patron, whose side does the liberal take?

Why is this a question? A Muslim baker has no more right to deny a gay patron than a Christian one. And by the way, I think this is a red herring because most of the things I've seen relating to this were either fake (i.e. Shoebat's viral videos purporting to call Muslim bakers - which were staged and faked) or gross misportrayals (the Muslim bakery that was asked about a wedding cake for a gay couple but said no - and it was because they don't make wedding cakes, period, whether gay or straight).

That was what lib media said? Lol. What are they saying about the college kids in Portland ready to send money in support of Hamas to murder Jewish civilians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

Well good.

Then please don't insult other liberals by automatically assuming we aren't and worse yet, leaping straight to accusing us of hypocrisy. Especially when we all know that less-liberal leaning folks are far less interested in diversity than we are.

If you are a white liberal in a HRC or living in Bethesda, then I don't see how you can tell yourself you are living your values. Just because mouth breathing racists are worse than you, doesn't make you virtuous. It just makes you better than them. Great. You are less (openly) racist than a Trump supporter. But unless you are actively living your values, the only thing you are doing is voting for the right things. Necessary but not sufficient.

Nobody is virtuous. A virtuous woman (or man) is rarer than emeralds. But just because a person isn't a Saint doesn't mean they aren't doing good. If you keep being this mean to them, maybe they'll come to a realization that they never can please you and stop voting for the right things. Voting for the right things is a good thing, not to be scorned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you see as being the benefits of diversity and multiculturalism? Studies have repeatedly shown that as diversity increases, perceived life satisfaction, social trust/cohesion, and spending on public goods all decrease. So it's not obvious that diversity is conducive to human happiness or even that it furthers other liberal goals. America's increasing diversity doesn't seem to have made it a happier or more tolerant place. Ditto for Europe. And, of course, there are lots of places where different cultures/ethnicities/religions live side-by-side that have horrible histories of tribal conflict (Yugoslavia, Lebanon, etc.).

So, why is the discussion of this issue among educated people so one-sided? At the very least, it seems that diversity involves complex trade-offs and might be a good policy at some time and a bad policy at others.

I think its really interesting that you would use Europe as an example here since it seems to me to be directly contrary to your point. The U.S. has had a long history of mulitculturalism and inclusion, and as a result, its immigrant communities are substantially more integrated into the county than they are in Europe. Europe, while generally being more progressive, has substantially more marginalized and segregated immigrant communities, and that fact has a direct and tangible impact on the current political situation there. There's a reason the Brussels terrorist attack was in Brussels, not the U.S. I also think nation-states with tribal conflicts aren't great comparisons, since those conflicts are an overlapping effect of longstanding historical strife with terrible state-building and artificial borders. Its true that arbitrarily shoving different ethnic and cultural groups into the same state often turns out poorly, but I think that says almost nothing about whether multiculturalism is a useful value.

More broadly, relying on studies showing that diversity can result in decreased perceived life satisfaction and decreased social trust and cohesion seems kind of like question-begging. The idea of multiculturalism isn't "let's throw a bunch of divergent groups together against their will," it is "when you have a multicultural community, let's teach tolerance and empathy, so that we don't have anger and lack of social trust. Multiculturalism is an attempt to alleviate the negative side effects of different groups coming together. In that sense, its highly pragmatic. Its true that if the U.S.'s demographics looked like Scandanavia, it might be much easier to run an effective society. But it doesn't, and nobody other than neo-nazis are suggesting mass segregation, so the question is whether we fully embrace our multicultural society and learn to live together or we don't.

I'd also note that folks who are less pro-diversity tend to ignore very real sociological and economic research as well. To give one example, virtually every single influx of immigrants into the U.S. has been met with distrust and fear yet has ultimately improved the economy and the standard of living, and research amply supports this point. These seem to me to be more lasting benefits than the "harm" caused by integration. I'm sure that a lot of Americans reported decreased "life satisfaction" and a decrease in "social trust/cohesion" when the Irish and Italians and Germans and Jews came over too, and you'd be hard pressed to make a non-idiotic argument that the country has been worse off in the long run because of those influxes.

I don't think the pro-diversity position is "Let's push more diversity wherever possible because it has no downsides," its "we live in a diverse world and diverse country, let's make the best of it."

PP, I appreciate the way you write.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Um, that "whiter more affluent charter hustle" in DC likely still has far more socioeconomic diversity than your Bethesda school, which last time I checked were over 60% white. There's likely more white kids in your kid's Bethesda classroom than there are in that "hustled affluent DC charter" you're complaining about. So again, mind those glass houses.

I'm a white liberal actually living my values. My upper middle class white kids are at a school with a 50% FARMS rate and that is majority minority. Try again.

OK? So what is your point? Because YOU aren't contributing to the de facto, extreme hypersegregation that occurs in a place like Bethesda means that it doesn't exist...?