Honest question for liberals about diversity/multiculturalism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Moderate liberal here. I have worked in technology and now in Finance. I have worked with the best and brightest from all races and culture and I think diversity is what has kept America at the cutting edge of innovation and new ideas. No other country is able to match American economic growth and innovative new companies simply because a diverse population can think more out of the box and can come up with solutions that will solve problems of varying nature.

America has always been multicultural, not just now. When Europeans came to the USA, native Americans were already here. And there were some aspects of native American culture that got mixed into the original melting pot. Then the mix with African culture to some extent. Not to mention that Europeans came with distinct and separate culture of their own. Its not like the Dutch, German and English had lot of commonality in the 1800s. (It may look like there is not much difference now, but even in a globalized world there are differences.) Then the Italians and Southern EUROPEANS were not even considered white to begin with not to mention they had distinct culture compared to Northern Europeans. Then when Eastern Europeans(Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc) immigrated, they were not considered part of the western culture either. Yet they all became part of the American melting pot. Then there was the Latino wave(even though Latinos were original Americans and much older than Irish and Italian Americans) that again became part of the melting pot. Finally the Asian wave has contributed so much to the American culture, economy and intellectual ability. Every first generation immigrant has roots in both culture in varying degrees BUT the second generation,no matter their root, always feel they are american as a rule rather than exception.

Without fresh ideas and out of the box thinikng, any population will get lazy after few decades of continuous prosperity. Thats why civilizations(Chinese, Indian, Greek, Roman, Persian etc) as great as they once were fell. The rot will always set in no matter what. Thats why nothing(empires or corporations or homogeneous society) lasts forever BUT the most successful ones adapt and bring in new and diverse ideas. Europe is facing a demographic decline and they are pushing for diversity and increase in population lil too late. It has to be continuous flow as it is in the USA not a panic open the gates now reaction. Diversity is the secret sauce of why the US is special and it is also a test for human civilization to evolve and build a great society and eventually a great american civilization that can adapt and bring in the best from wherever and be the beacon for everyone to follow and learn from.

I would agree if the US had an immigration policy that emphasized bringing in the best and the brightest; we don't. I think it's easy to assume that all immigrants are the same as the ones you (and I) work with in the tech world; they're not. I'm all for immigration of smart people who become productive law abiding members of American society, but our immigration system simply isn't setup for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I can't wait for some of the older blacks and whites to die off so we can move beyond the whole race issue

Both hateful and inaccurate.

That was not said in a serious tone at all. Granted it was lil bit insensitive but certainly not hateful. I think the really big issue is that some people are just super sensitive and read more than what is meant and context is missed in the process. Lets all chill and not attribute the worst of intentions on everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

One glaring example, IMO, is that there is no expectation that immigrants who come here learn English. While English is not the “official” language of our country, I don’t think anyone can claim that it isn’t the primary language, and that if you want to get ahead in business or as a resident of our country, you need to learn English.
For our country to bend over backwards to translate material into 10 or more languages is really ridiculous. It comes at great expense for businesses, school systems, and our government.

Agreed but the market takes care of that. People get hung up on trees and ignore the forest. There is no data to conclude that children of immigrants do not know English. Can you post any link to your comment about school materials being translated into 10 OR MORE languages? It does make sense to translate immigration related materials to be translated into 10 or More languages to cater to NEW immigrants who may not know English.

Completely agree with this. I don't know of any immigrant enclave (even in California where there are huge communities of immigrants to the point where you probably could live your entire life mostly surrounded by people who look just like you) where the children of immigrants (both documented and undocumented) don't learn English. It just doesn't happen. It's true that at a local level schools may decide to have bilingual education programs to help those children start on equal footing, but I know plenty of white Americans who choose to put their kids in those programs as well to provide a better opportunity for learning a second language. I used to work with a colleague from California who went through a program like that, and it was an incredible help to have someone fluent in Spanish when we ended up doing a lot of work in S. America.

The primary objections I've heard are people bristling that they might have to push 1 for English and 2 for Spanish on a customer service line. It's funny, because to me the far more infuriating thing about customer service lines are the robot operators that try to interpret you voice and direct you...almost always incorrectly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

One glaring example, IMO, is that there is no expectation that immigrants who come here learn English. While English is not the “official” language of our country, I don’t think anyone can claim that it isn’t the primary language, and that if you want to get ahead in business or as a resident of our country, you need to learn English.
For our country to bend over backwards to translate material into 10 or more languages is really ridiculous. It comes at great expense for businesses, school systems, and our government.

Agreed but the market takes care of that. People get hung up on trees and ignore the forest. There is no data to conclude that children of immigrants do not know English. Can you post any link to your comment about school materials being translated into 10 OR MORE languages? It does make sense to translate immigration related materials to be translated into 10 or More languages to cater to NEW immigrants who may not know English.

This is not ten, but it is seven. There are probably other documents on the FCPS website with more translations. And, there are translations for many, many documents in FCPS.
I am sure other area school districts are similar.
http://www.fcps.edu/it/byod/index.shtml

There's a difference between translating announcements that intended for parents and translating classroom materials. I seriously doubt that FCPS is providing classroom instruction in all 7 of those languages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Diversity can be a good thing.
What I get frustrated with is the expectation that we, as Americans, must honor the cultures of other countries when the immigrants come here, but there is little expectation that they honor the cultures and expectations of OUR country.
If you are going to go to another country to live (or even to visit), it would be prudent to learn the culture, the laws, and the expectations of that country and learn to accept them. You can still honor your heritage, but don’t expect the citizens of the other country to follow your customs.

Can you provide an example of this? There is a lot of expectation that immigrants honor and value the tenets of the American constitution...I think the challenge we face is for people who have been in this country for generations to accept that ultimately that is the primary commonality that brings Americans together. Even at the time of our founding, Georgia was culturally very different from Massachusetts.

Her's an example. Per capita, immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than natives, and collect fewer food stamps and other benefits. What I believe previous PP was suggesting is that they start committing more violent crimes and finding ways into entitlement funds. Only then can we think of them as real Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moderate liberal here. I have worked in technology and now in Finance. I have worked with the best and brightest from all races and culture and I think diversity is what has kept America at the cutting edge of innovation and new ideas. No other country is able to match American economic growth and innovative new companies simply because a diverse population can think more out of the box and can come up with solutions that will solve problems of varying nature.

America has always been multicultural, not just now. When Europeans came to the USA, native Americans were already here. And there were some aspects of native American culture that got mixed into the original melting pot. Then the mix with African culture to some extent. Not to mention that Europeans came with distinct and separate culture of their own. Its not like the Dutch, German and English had lot of commonality in the 1800s. (It may look like there is not much difference now, but even in a globalized world there are differences.) Then the Italians and Southern EUROPEANS were not even considered white to begin with not to mention they had distinct culture compared to Northern Europeans. Then when Eastern Europeans(Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc) immigrated, they were not considered part of the western culture either. Yet they all became part of the American melting pot. Then there was the Latino wave(even though Latinos were original Americans and much older than Irish and Italian Americans) that again became part of the melting pot. Finally the Asian wave has contributed so much to the American culture, economy and intellectual ability. Every first generation immigrant has roots in both culture in varying degrees BUT the second generation,no matter their root, always feel they are american as a rule rather than exception.

Without fresh ideas and out of the box thinikng, any population will get lazy after few decades of continuous prosperity. Thats why civilizations(Chinese, Indian, Greek, Roman, Persian etc) as great as they once were fell. The rot will always set in no matter what. Thats why nothing(empires or corporations or homogeneous society) lasts forever BUT the most successful ones adapt and bring in new and diverse ideas. Europe is facing a demographic decline and they are pushing for diversity and increase in population lil too late. It has to be continuous flow as it is in the USA not a panic open the gates now reaction. Diversity is the secret sauce of why the US is special and it is also a test for human civilization to evolve and build a great society and eventually a great american civilization that can adapt and bring in the best from wherever and be the beacon for everyone to follow and learn from.

I would agree if the US had an immigration policy that emphasized bringing in the best and the brightest; we don't. I think it's easy to assume that all immigrants are the same as the ones you (and I) work with in the tech world; they're not. I'm all for immigration of smart people who become productive law abiding members of American society, but our immigration system simply isn't setup for that.

Smart people aren't the only ones who contribute meaningfully to society. And just because an immigrant isn't educated enough to be a tech worker, it doesn't mean their children won't be. Most immigrants that I know of who work the toughest blue collar jobs are doing so to provide the absolute best education available to their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

One glaring example, IMO, is that there is no expectation that immigrants who come here learn English. While English is not the “official” language of our country, I don’t think anyone can claim that it isn’t the primary language, and that if you want to get ahead in business or as a resident of our country, you need to learn English.
For our country to bend over backwards to translate material into 10 or more languages is really ridiculous. It comes at great expense for businesses, school systems, and our government.

Agreed but the market takes care of that. People get hung up on trees and ignore the forest. There is no data to conclude that children of immigrants do not know English. Can you post any link to your comment about school materials being translated into 10 OR MORE languages? It does make sense to translate immigration related materials to be translated into 10 or More languages to cater to NEW immigrants who may not know English.

This is not ten, but it is seven. There are probably other documents on the FCPS website with more translations. And, there are translations for many, many documents in FCPS.
I am sure other area school districts are similar.
http://www.fcps.edu/it/byod/index.shtml

There's a difference between translating announcements that intended for parents and translating classroom materials. I seriously doubt that FCPS is providing classroom instruction in all 7 of those languages.

Outside of foreign language instruction, I am certain they are not providing classroom materials translated.
But, to expect translations in seven or more languages for all the parent materials available comes at a cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moderate liberal here. I have worked in technology and now in Finance. I have worked with the best and brightest from all races and culture and I think diversity is what has kept America at the cutting edge of innovation and new ideas. No other country is able to match American economic growth and innovative new companies simply because a diverse population can think more out of the box and can come up with solutions that will solve problems of varying nature.

America has always been multicultural, not just now. When Europeans came to the USA, native Americans were already here. And there were some aspects of native American culture that got mixed into the original melting pot. Then the mix with African culture to some extent. Not to mention that Europeans came with distinct and separate culture of their own. Its not like the Dutch, German and English had lot of commonality in the 1800s. (It may look like there is not much difference now, but even in a globalized world there are differences.) Then the Italians and Southern EUROPEANS were not even considered white to begin with not to mention they had distinct culture compared to Northern Europeans. Then when Eastern Europeans(Polish, Ukrainian, Russian etc) immigrated, they were not considered part of the western culture either. Yet they all became part of the American melting pot. Then there was the Latino wave(even though Latinos were original Americans and much older than Irish and Italian Americans) that again became part of the melting pot. Finally the Asian wave has contributed so much to the American culture, economy and intellectual ability. Every first generation immigrant has roots in both culture in varying degrees BUT the second generation,no matter their root, always feel they are american as a rule rather than exception.

Without fresh ideas and out of the box thinikng, any population will get lazy after few decades of continuous prosperity. Thats why civilizations(Chinese, Indian, Greek, Roman, Persian etc) as great as they once were fell. The rot will always set in no matter what. Thats why nothing(empires or corporations or homogeneous society) lasts forever BUT the most successful ones adapt and bring in new and diverse ideas. Europe is facing a demographic decline and they are pushing for diversity and increase in population lil too late. It has to be continuous flow as it is in the USA not a panic open the gates now reaction. Diversity is the secret sauce of why the US is special and it is also a test for human civilization to evolve and build a great society and eventually a great american civilization that can adapt and bring in the best from wherever and be the beacon for everyone to follow and learn from.

I would agree if the US had an immigration policy that emphasized bringing in the best and the brightest; we don't. I think it's easy to assume that all immigrants are the same as the ones you (and I) work with in the tech world; they're not. I'm all for immigration of smart people who become productive law abiding members of American society, but our immigration system simply isn't setup for that.

First, this isn't accurate. If you add the "family reunification" category immigrants who are re-unifying with immigrants who came over under the skilled immigrant program, it is in fact a majority of all immigrants.

Second, there has literally never been a wave of immigration into the United States that did not turn out to be a net boon for our economy. The notion that immigrants are a drain on the country is a pervasive myth that is repeatedly disproven by empirical research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would agree if the US had an immigration policy that emphasized bringing in the best and the brightest; we don't. I think it's easy to assume that all immigrants are the same as the ones you (and I) work with in the tech world; they're not. I'm all for immigration of smart people who become productive law abiding members of American society, but our immigration system simply isn't setup for that.

The topic is not about immigration per se but on diversity and multi-culturalism. Even if immigration is halted, as some bigots wish to protect their imaginary purity, the country will remain diverse and multi-cultural.

But I understand immigration is somewhat related to diversity, so I will try to address that. No immigration system is perfect, since nobody can ascertain who is(much less who will be) productive and who is not. We cant even say education is a criteria for productivity, if that be the case then many immigrants(Irish,Italian,Polish, Vietnamese, etc) shouldn't have been allowed. But they and certainly their children did well later on. Having said that, obviously undesirable elements like murderers and thieves should not be allowed, but this country should not be shut down to refugees just because they do not know English or they are uneducated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Smart people aren't the only ones who contribute meaningfully to society. And just because an immigrant isn't educated enough to be a tech worker, it doesn't mean their children won't be. Most immigrants that I know of who work the toughest blue collar jobs are doing so to provide the absolute best education available to their children.

This would be my family. Parents worked blue collar jobs, now retired, and some of us are tech workers. Many of my childhood friends are also tech workers. A lot of the parents also ran small businesses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a followup to my previous post, those who attribute diversity to America's failings are barking up the wrong tree. The ECONOMIC INEQUITY is what is causing UNHAPPINESS among certain segment of the society that has been left out by globalization or are just plain lazy and entitled. This situation has to be corrected by better economic/fiscal policies that helps the ones left out by various retraining or better education models and other innovative ways. Tax policy and better income allocation can be one of the factors in addressing this situation.

Blaming NON WHITE or ANY one group for economic situation is not a solution. Thats what demagogues do, attribute blame as a solution to a problem.

I liked your first post but today there are educational opportunities beginning with pre K in public schools but still great disparities in achievement. One fellow [central american] told me when in K-12 he did not take advantage of his opportunities [HS in eastern FX county] and many friends ruined their lives with gang affiliation etc. stated should have applied himself and could have been engineer-felt somewhat caught up since was licensed master tradesman.

So absurd that many get to check Hispanic box when are from highly educated families etc. There were no Polish check boxes in 1915. Virtually no ESL-my dad and family really mastered English immersion style. What we do need to do is bring back manufacturing and tech related stuff. Get the call centers out of ie India and in places like DC and Philly and Baltimore.

[Anonymous]

You all should be mindful of the fact that many immigrants were ready willing and able to fight in wars for the USA. Migrants in Europe are not willing to fight for their own country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The question is not, "Diversity, yes or no?" We already have an incredibly diverse nation and there is no going back. That's why it's so important to show and teach our children to get along with all kinds of people. This is a very practical need. Otherwise, they end up turning into adults who believe their race is superior/"normal"/right, and our national problems go on and on.

THANK YOU. Hidden within OP's post is the assumption that non-diversity is the natural state of things. What OP really means is: what is the benefit of diversity and multiculturalism in power and access to resources? So then you're really asking, should we maintain repression, discrimination, and segregation? And the answer to that has to be no, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Diversity can be a good thing.
What I get frustrated with is the expectation that we, as Americans, must honor the cultures of other countries when the immigrants come here, but there is little expectation that they honor the cultures and expectations of OUR country.
If you are going to go to another country to live (or even to visit), it would be prudent to learn the culture, the laws, and the expectations of that country and learn to accept them. You can still honor your heritage, but don’t expect the citizens of the other country to follow your customs.

Can you provide an example of this? There is a lot of expectation that immigrants honor and value the tenets of the American constitution...I think the challenge we face is for people who have been in this country for generations to accept that ultimately that is the primary commonality that brings Americans together. Even at the time of our founding, Georgia was culturally very different from Massachusetts.

Her's an example. Per capita, immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than natives, and collect fewer food stamps and other benefits. What I believe previous PP was suggesting is that they start committing more violent crimes and finding ways into entitlement funds. Only then can we think of them as real Americans.

Ah! this is more like a typical DCUM thread now. stupid people saying stupid things. I guess the intelligent conversation couldn't last.

[Anonymous]

I am the child of uneducated immigrants who did not speak the language. My parents never spent one day on welfare. Despite their lack of education, they worked every day of their lives until retirement. My cousins and I all have college educations, are white collar professionals, and work full time.

You have to remember that immigrating to a foreign country is very difficult and stressful, especially if you are uneducated and don't speak the language. Those who choose to do so are self-selected as the most risk-taking, ambitious and determined. It can't hurt to have those types of people to build up the country.