Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

Because when you grow up within the religion it is normal. I attended my first bris (a cousin) when I was 8. Yet I already knew the tradition and thought nothing of it. Extended family and friends got together, cooed over the baby, kids under the age of 13 were sent outside to play during the actual ceremony, then we all trooped back in and had a big party with traditional spread, cake, wine. It was a joyous occasion. To reasonably religious or traditional Jews the bris is a celebration of a new baby boy -- for himself, for the family, for whomever he is named for, for the actual circumcision that formally marks him as Jewish. It's not this horrible thing non-Jews apparently perceive it to be. The pain is momentary and quickly goes away. It's like giving a shot or when you 2 year old falls down and skins his knees. Yes, it hurts. No, it does not scar them for life. They don't remember.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

Is this still true across the board? Will it be in 18+ years?

https://www.facebook.com/Jews-Against-Circumcision-165424110207450/

It will absolutely remain true for Orthodox Jews. Circumcision is a cornerstone of Halacha (Jewish law). Those who don't consider Halacha authoritative can do whatever they want; they just won't be following Jewish law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

Because when you grow up within the religion it is normal. I attended my first bris (a cousin) when I was 8. Yet I already knew the tradition and thought nothing of it. Extended family and friends got together, cooed over the baby, kids under the age of 13 were sent outside to play during the actual ceremony, then we all trooped back in and had a big party with traditional spread, cake, wine. It was a joyous occasion. To reasonably religious or traditional Jews the bris is a celebration of a new baby boy -- for himself, for the family, for whomever he is named for, for the actual circumcision that formally marks him as Jewish. It's not this horrible thing non-Jews apparently perceive it to be. The pain is momentary and quickly goes away. It's like giving a shot or when you 2 year old falls down and skins his knees. Yes, it hurts. No, it does not scar them for life. They don't remember.

They might remember it. There's evidence that suggests so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.

Lol. You are quite ignorant of the facts. Almost 50 percent of Israeli jews are secular.

OP, You are taking out your frustration of Israeli politics and religionon your unborn son and this decision. What does the fact that you can't get married in Israel have to do with circumcision of your son? Your dh married you. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what you can and cannot do in Israel. You and he need to figure this out together. His is your child, together. You get to decide these things, as a family, it should not be one person making the decision and for the love of God, don't make your choice to circumcise or not a political statement! How do you think your son would feel about that?

OP here. I know it's a long thread, but maybe read through before you take the time to chastise me. I explained what it has to do with my decision and it's not the reductive, ideologically overdetermined caricature you are making it out to be.

i did read the entire thread. i am not the only one who stated what i did. i am sorry that you took offense to what i said but not others - but you keep coming back to Israel and the things that Israel does and what it stands for that upsets you. that's fine, that is your right to feel that way, but it has no place in making this decision about circumcision.

I'm sorry, I don't think you understand. The point is that in Israel, there is both an institutional and cultural understanding of Judaism that affects how people there will understand my child's identity. That is absolutely relevant to how he will see his own circumcision or lack thereof, unless we have another context to put it in.

I do understand, actually. I am on your side, but you are too prickly to see that.

Your dh does not care. He is the Israeli Jew. Why, then, are you dragging his country into this if he himself does not care?

I am an American Jewish woman, married to an American Jewish man. We had a bris for my son. I really don't care what you decide for your own family. But what I am reading from you is that you are placing the burden of Israeli Judaism on your shoulders when it does not need to be. And THAT is what bothers me.

Wow, OK. Something about my life bothers you personally? Interesting. As the child of immigrants who come from a very different culture, I'm very aware of how these various identities can collide and interact. I have gone to college with Israeli American children and they eventually have to reckon with this part of their identities. As an American married to an American, you don't seem to have any personal experience with this kind of issue yourself, unless I'm wrong?

For example, w've already had to make a decision about their passports -- I decided to intentionally revoke them, because I don't want them to feel that they are shirking their military duty (even though there's an easy way for overseas Israelis to get out of it, I don't want them to feel that this is a decision they are responsible for simply because their father happens to be Israeli). I had to give up one of my birth passports when I was 18 due to dual citizenship requirements, so I understand what this could mean to them. There are lots of things like this.

Finally, just because my husband's attitude is one of detachment doesn't mean that's how my children will take it. My oldest is quite sensitive and already developing an individual relation with the grandparents. I think they ARE going to be impacted by how his extended family relates to them and speaks to them about this. So what if their father's attitude is X... they have their own world and relationships, which does extend in this case to Israel.

Lady, you cannot control everything. There are consequences to every action and inaction. You cannot know what will or will not affect your unborn child. You are not Israeli. Let your dh take the lead on this and give yourself a major break. Peace out.

Amazing insights here. Truly, every parent should make choices for their child based on banalities and clichés, because that's a lot better than thinking through it. That's why discussion is not at all central to Jewish culture, and the Talmud is so short.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

It's probably assumed that you are circumcised. As for Israel, it's getting slightly more common, but still only ~5% uncircumcised:

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-their-sons-1.436421

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

Because when you grow up within the religion it is normal. I attended my first bris (a cousin) when I was 8. Yet I already knew the tradition and thought nothing of it. Extended family and friends got together, cooed over the baby, kids under the age of 13 were sent outside to play during the actual ceremony, then we all trooped back in and had a big party with traditional spread, cake, wine. It was a joyous occasion. To reasonably religious or traditional Jews the bris is a celebration of a new baby boy -- for himself, for the family, for whomever he is named for, for the actual circumcision that formally marks him as Jewish. It's not this horrible thing non-Jews apparently perceive it to be. The pain is momentary and quickly goes away. It's like giving a shot or when you 2 year old falls down and skins his knees. Yes, it hurts. No, it does not scar them for life. They don't remember.

They might remember it. There's evidence that suggests so.

Well, maybe those kids are geniuses, but I assure you no Jewish boy or man I know -- and I know a lot -- remembers this. Yes, it comes up periodically. No, no one has ever said he remembers it or has a problem with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

OP, I've read the whole thread. You may not think you have issues with Jews but all your posts are complaining about how you feel excluded by the Jewish community and you don't like this or that aspect of Judaism and you think the practices are barbaric, etc. You are entitled to your opinion. I truly do not care. But it comes across clearly even if you are not aware of it.

Look -- you don't want to circumcise your son. So don't! Easy as that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Hate to quibble, but those are not both sides of the coin. Try Reform or Humanistic judaism for the opposite side of the coin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

OP, I've read the whole thread. You may not think you have issues with Jews but all your posts are complaining about how you feel excluded by the Jewish community and you don't like this or that aspect of Judaism and you think the practices are barbaric, etc. You are entitled to your opinion. I truly do not care. But it comes across clearly even if you are not aware of it.

Look -- you don't want to circumcise your son. So don't! Easy as that.

Actually, I've expressed many opinions about certain interpretations of Jewish laws and practice which other Jews also express. So no, I don't "have issues with Jews." Unless other Jews have issues with Jews, just because they think the state of Israel shouldn't have discriminatory marriage laws, or because they think a lot of Orthodox interpretations are nonsense and don't have to do with Jewish religion. I reject the idea that criticizing particular views and interpretations is a sign of having issues with Jews as such. It's pretty intolerant of you to think that way.