Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

OP, I've read the whole thread. You may not think you have issues with Jews but all your posts are complaining about how you feel excluded by the Jewish community and you don't like this or that aspect of Judaism and you think the practices are barbaric, etc. You are entitled to your opinion. I truly do not care. But it comes across clearly even if you are not aware of it.

Look -- you don't want to circumcise your son. So don't! Easy as that.

From the Haaretz link posted earlier:

Among those in the latter group are Eran and Maya Sadeh, who live in the north of the country. They say that the most shocking piece of information they came across about circumcision, and the one that influenced them most deeply was the view of Maimonides on the subject ?(see Circumcision in Judaism below?). The great 13th century physician and philosopher “accorded emasculating justification to circumcision,” Eran Sadeh says. “He maintained explicitly that it is done in order to affect male sexuality and reduce the pleasure of the sex act. For me, that connected with female circumcision and shocked me. I immediately read up on the physiological aspects and understood that what Maimonides said is correct: Circumcision affects the functioning of the genital organ in sexual relations.

“I connected that with my legal knowledge about human rights and understood that it’s wrong from that point of view as well. You take a person in the most vulnerable and helpless condition and amputate part of his body. Maimonides talks about that, too. Circumcision is performed when the infant is eight days old, because the bond between the parent and the child is not yet very strong and the parent is capable of inflicting this on his son. It is a gross violation of human rights, perpetrated by none other than the child’s parents, those who are responsible for protecting him.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-their-sons-1.436421

So... does Eran Sadeh have "issues with Jews," because he finds circumcision barbaric? Give me a break. If you really think about it, it's going to be one of those practices that is increasingly difficult to justify as society becomes more secular. Along with Israeli marriage laws and the rest. It has nothing to do with having "issues with Jews," and everything to do with opposing a certain kind of fundamentalist thinking based on literal interpretations of a text written a very long time ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

I know what a secular Israeli is, but I am not familiar with the opinion of secular Israelis on circumcision, especially that subset of secular Israelis who marry gentiles.

I would suggest DCUM is probably not the best place to find people familiar with that. As a practicing Conservative Jew, I am not sure why this is a big deal to your husband. Without knowing that, I cannot give advice to your situation.

It is not the fault of Judaism, or of observant Jews, that your husband wants to circumcise an halachically non-Jewish child. The ceremony remains meaningful to us, and in a world where some would ban it, discussions calling it barbaric are a concern to me. But that is a different issue from what you should do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

In the case of Jewish parents (by birth or choice) with a Jewish son, it is a question of the kind of person the parents are - not the kind of person the child is. IE are they the kind who follow Jewish law and tradition or not? There are plenty of articles on the spiritual meaning of this particular mitzvah, as for many others, but it seems kind of pointless to repeat them for someone NOT obligated by the tradition to follow it.

Its what PP said - you don't want to do it, so don't. No one in the Jewish community cares - other than maybe your DH, and we cannot speak for him. This is about you and him, and I am uncomfortable with your issue with him making this a hook to discuss the meaning of bris mileh for traditional Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Hate to quibble, but those are not both sides of the coin. Try Reform or Humanistic judaism for the opposite side of the coin.

Not to quibble, but Reform Judaism is arguably lot closer to Orthodoxy theologically-speaking than Reconstructionist Judaism. At any rate, the point is that neither of those movements consider Halacha binding. There's also a lot of overlap in the movements, since most communities don't have the resources and numbers to support both a Recon and a Reform synagogue. As a practical matter, I have most definitely lived both sides of the coin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

I read what you said, and I don't think there is much that Conservative/Masorti Judaism disagrees with (I would say that being Jewish is about more than keeping Jewish law - "one can be a cad within the halacha" and "derech eretz kadma le torah" - but then I think most Orthodox believe that as well. )

As for dropping Jewish Law in Reform, that happened over 150 years ago, its not something they are just getting around to. If anything they have been inching back towards it over the last 40 years or so. In the case of bris mileh though, this was something that was universal practice in Reform 40 years ago, not out of respect for halacha, but as deeply, deeply embedded folkway, and the assault on circumcision in the wider culture appears to have eroded that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

I read what you said, and I don't think there is much that Conservative/Masorti Judaism disagrees with (I would say that being Jewish is about more than keeping Jewish law - "one can be a cad within the halacha" and "derech eretz kadma le torah" - but then I think most Orthodox believe that as well. )

As for dropping Jewish Law in Reform, that happened over 150 years ago, its not something they are just getting around to. If anything they have been inching back towards it over the last 40 years or so. In the case of bris mileh though, this was something that was universal practice in Reform 40 years ago, not out of respect for halacha, but as deeply, deeply embedded folkway, and the assault on circumcision in the wider culture appears to have eroded that.

Yeah, I am Conservative, and I would not be surprised to hear that a Reform rabbi did not require circumcision, but I would be very surprised to hear that a Conservative rabbi did not. Of course, I don't know what goes on in other people's houses or trousers. And I think the "pin prick" rule is pretty standard. We were told that if the baby was circumcised in the hospital, they would do a pin prick at the bris to complete the ritual.

We had an Orthodox rabbi perform our son's bris and he did ask if DH was circumcised! So there is at least one guy out there inquiring about adults. It was part of his information-gathering: are both parents born Jewish, were all grandparents Jewish, everyone circumcised, any converts, anyone a kohen or levi, etc. I've no idea what he would have said if we had responded in the negative, but then again you don't ask an Orthodox rabbi to perform a bris unless you are serious about it. (And actually, he did my nephew's bris also and my BIL is not technically Jewish -- Jewish dad, Christian mom, no formal conversion -- so maybe he is more relaxed/easygoing than I might have expected.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

I know what a secular Israeli is, but I am not familiar with the opinion of secular Israelis on circumcision, especially that subset of secular Israelis who marry gentiles.

I would suggest DCUM is probably not the best place to find people familiar with that. As a practicing Conservative Jew, I am not sure why this is a big deal to your husband. Without knowing that, I cannot give advice to your situation.

It is not the fault of Judaism, or of observant Jews, that your husband wants to circumcise an halachically non-Jewish child. The ceremony remains meaningful to us, and in a world where some would ban it, discussions calling it barbaric are a concern to me. But that is a different issue from what you should do.

Arranged child marriage is religiously significant for some cultures. Yet it most likely will phase out as Western ideas of human/women's rights spread to other cultures. The same goes with female circumcision. Historically, you're just on the wrong side of this argument... sorry to say. Religiously meaningful practices that don't violate consent and so forth will probably be allowed to continue. I don't think this is really about anti-Semitism. Religious norms have constantly had to adjust to and interact with cultural ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

Good to know. So basically one benefit of not circumcising would be that it could dissuade people from converting to Orthodox Judaism. I will keep that in mind, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

Good to know. So basically one benefit of not circumcising would be that it could dissuade people from converting to Orthodox Judaism. I will keep that in mind, thanks.

Not a problem for us, since Judaism doesn't proselytize or encourage conversion in the first place.

But great dig at Orthodox Judaism, anyway! What a tolerant piece of work you are!

[Anonymous]

I love circumcised penises. I love intact penises. I love Jews. I love non-Jews. Group hug, everyone!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.

Because being Jewish can't be boiled down to being a good person. Judaism doesn't say you need to be Jewish or follow Jewish law in order to be a good person. Judaism is about living your life in a certain way, according to Halacha (Jewish law). And circumcision happens to be a cornerstone of following Jewish law. Keeping kosher and shabbat isn't rational or about being a good person; it's about living a Jewish life. Same goes for circumcision. I know you say you've thoroughly explored Jewish culture, but it is impossible to truly grasp this or understand the purpose of Halacha unless you've lived it or followed it.

Full disclosure: I grew up Reconstructionist but became Orthodox later in life, so I understand both sides of the coin.

Ok, that's one interpretation of Judaism. I have many Orthodox friends as well as friends who grew up Orthodox and left it, and of course centering your life around the observance of all these laws is a totally different way of understanding Judaism than what reform Jews live. Since so many Jews (who consider themselves as Jewish as you) don't even keep kosher or really live their day-to-day lives any differently than non-Jews in terms of following "Jewish law," then you're really debating here within Judaism about how to understand it.

As for adult circumcision, I looked into it further and actually the argument that you should do it to give your child the option is looking weaker and weaker given that you can also just get the ritual drop of blood and be done with it. So if he really needs to prick his penis to be a Jew when he grows up, good luck to him.

Correct. I am articulating the Orthodox view of what it means to practice Judaism, which holds that being Jewish = being obligated to follow Jewish law. (And to clarify, a Jew'a failure to follow Jewish law doesn't make them not Jewish or less Jewish. They're still Jewish; they're just violating Jewish law.)

Your claim about circumcision is absolutely false, at least with respect to the Orthodox movement. You need a pin prick even if you're already circumcised. No Orthodox rabbi would sanction a conversion without circumcision.

I have no idea what the other movements have to say, but it does indeed look like they are dropping the circumcision requirement, as well as Jewish law altogether, for that matter. Not sure what remains, other than liberal humanism. (Which is fine, but what's the point in insisting that it's Judaism? Just be a good liberal human, if that's what you want.)

Good to know. So basically one benefit of not circumcising would be that it could dissuade people from converting to Orthodox Judaism. I will keep that in mind, thanks.

Not a problem for us, since Judaism doesn't proselytize or encourage conversion in the first place.

But great dig at Orthodox Judaism, anyway! What a tolerant piece of work you are!

+1. and, if that was the OP, then i think a number of us posting on this thread that she is making this is more than just about circumcision have been validated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to point out that there is no test to be part of the American Jewish community.

Nobody is going to pull your son's pants down to determine if he is welcome to join a temple, or attend services, or go to Jewish day camp, join Hillel at his college, eat at Katz's, vote Democratic (ok, that was a joke), take the day off at work/school on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, stick up for/criticize Israel, or do any of the many, many things that define the community of "American Jews."

I can't speak to Israel, but i can tell you that in my almost 50 years as an American Jew, not once have I been asked about circumcision - at a Jewish event, or elsewhere for that matter.

The only one who is going to pull his pants down is a future wife or girlfriend. If she is Jewish, it might become a point of conversation - though if he is of mixed parentage and raised in a non-observant household, she should not be surprised by what she finds.

She won't be surprised because it sounds like OP's son will not identify as Jewish, and that is fine. He will know he has Jewish heritage but if they are not raising him Jewish -- which it sounds like they aren't because DH doesn't care and OP has major issues with Jews or at least Israeli Jews -- he won't be Jewish. So if he marries a Jewish woman he's going to have to have that conversation anyway. Hopefully before she pulls down his pants.

Nope, inaccurate. Learn to read before you comment. DH is a secular Israeli, if you know some you know what that means. They are against religious Judaism. I do not "have major issues with Jews," I find that certain interpretations and applications of Jewish law are against my personal values. Big difference. As for Israel, this came into the discussion because many people were urging us to look into Reform/reconstructionist Judaism so I had to explain why this isn't relevant to our family. I am guessing we would be more ideologically aligned with Reform, but it's not of interest to my husband.

I know what a secular Israeli is, but I am not familiar with the opinion of secular Israelis on circumcision, especially that subset of secular Israelis who marry gentiles.

I would suggest DCUM is probably not the best place to find people familiar with that. As a practicing Conservative Jew, I am not sure why this is a big deal to your husband. Without knowing that, I cannot give advice to your situation.

It is not the fault of Judaism, or of observant Jews, that your husband wants to circumcise an halachically non-Jewish child. The ceremony remains meaningful to us, and in a world where some would ban it, discussions calling it barbaric are a concern to me. But that is a different issue from what you should do.

Arranged child marriage is religiously significant for some cultures. Yet it most likely will phase out as Western ideas of human/women's rights spread to other cultures. The same goes with female circumcision. Historically, you're just on the wrong side of this argument... sorry to say. Religiously meaningful practices that don't violate consent and so forth will probably be allowed to continue. I don't think this is really about anti-Semitism. Religious norms have constantly had to adjust to and interact with cultural ones.

Well we see where you are coming from.

If OP finds that helpful that is her business.

[Anonymous]

My husband was born Jewish and I converted. Our family is pretty observant (Conservative movement) and we chose not to circumcise our son. It was a difficult decision at the time but we have never regretted it. DS has told us he is glad we made the choice we did. It may perhaps become an issue at some point in the future if he wants to marry an observant Jewish woman, but as in your case, the fact that I (and therefore he) are not considered Jewish by Orthodox Jews would be a bigger barrier than lack of circumcision.

In your case, I don't see any reason why you would circumcise your son.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband was born Jewish and I converted. Our family is pretty observant (Conservative movement) and we chose not to circumcise our son. It was a difficult decision at the time but we have never regretted it. DS has told us he is glad we made the choice we did. It may perhaps become an issue at some point in the future if he wants to marry an observant Jewish woman, but as in your case, the fact that I (and therefore he) are not considered Jewish by Orthodox Jews would be a bigger barrier than lack of circumcision.

In your case, I don't see any reason why you would circumcise your son.

Please tell me how that convo with your DS went. I just don't even understand. How old was he?

Mom: How do you like your penis?

Son: It's great, thanks!