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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

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Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.[/quote]

Lol. You are quite ignorant of the facts. Almost 50 percent of Israeli jews are secular.

OP, You are taking out your frustration of Israeli politics and religionon your unborn son and this decision. What does the fact that you can't get married in Israel have to do with circumcision of your son? Your dh married you. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what you can and cannot do in Israel. You and he need to figure this out together. His is your child, together. You get to decide these things, as a family, it should not be one person making the decision and for the love of God, don't make your choice to circumcise or not a political statement! How do you think your son would feel about that? [/quote]

OP here. I know it's a long thread, but maybe read through before you take the time to chastise me. I explained what it has to do with my decision and it's not the reductive, ideologically overdetermined caricature you are making it out to be.[/quote]

i did read the entire thread.  i am not the only one who stated what i did.  i am sorry that you took offense to what i said but not others - but you keep coming back to Israel and the things that Israel does and what it stands for that upsets you.  that's fine, that is your right to feel that way, but it has no place in making this decision about circumcision.  [/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't think you understand. The point is that in Israel, there is both an institutional and cultural understanding of Judaism that affects how people there will understand my child's identity. That is absolutely relevant to how he will see his own circumcision or lack thereof, unless we have another context to put it in. [/quote]

I do understand, actually. I am on your side, but you are too prickly to see that.

Your dh does not care. He is the Israeli Jew. Why, then, are you dragging his country into this if he himself does not care?

I am an American Jewish woman, married to an American Jewish man. We had a bris for my son. I really don't care what you decide for your own family. But what I am reading from you is that you are placing the burden of Israeli Judaism on your shoulders when it does not need to be. And THAT is what bothers me.[/quote]

Wow, OK.  Something about my life bothers you personally?  Interesting.  As the child of immigrants who come from a very different culture, I'm very aware of how these various identities can collide and interact.  I have gone to college with Israeli American children and they eventually have to reckon with this part of their identities.  As an American married to an American, you don't seem to have any personal experience with this kind of issue yourself, unless I'm wrong?

For example, w've already had to make a decision about their passports -- I decided to intentionally revoke them, because I don't want them to feel that they are shirking their military duty (even though there's an easy way for overseas Israelis to get out of it, I don't want them to feel that this is a decision they are responsible for simply because their father happens to be Israeli).  I had to give up one of my birth passports when I was 18 due to dual citizenship requirements, so I understand what this could mean to them.  There are lots of things like this.

Finally, just because my husband's attitude is one of detachment doesn't mean that's how my children will take it.  My oldest is quite sensitive and already developing an individual relation with the grandparents.  I think they ARE going to be impacted by how his extended family relates to them and speaks to them about this.  So what if their father's attitude is X... they have their own world and relationships, which does extend in this case to Israel.  
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[b]Lady, you cannot control everything.  There are consequences to every action and inaction. [/b] You cannot know what will or will not affect your unborn child. You are not Israeli. Let your dh take the lead on this and give yourself a major break. Peace out.[/quote]

Amazing insights here.  Truly, every parent should make choices for their child based on banalities and clichés, because that's a lot better than thinking through it.  That's why discussion is not at all central to Jewish culture, and the Talmud is so short.

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