Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-Perspective-Ronald-Goldman/dp/0964489562

We are very observant Jews and active members at an orthodox shul. We are shomer shabbat, kosher, and for the most part, very traditional. Our son had a bris on his 8th day, but we did not circumcise him. Some people call it a "Bris Shalom" (peaceful covenant as opposed to a bris milah) and choose to cut a string as a symbolic "cut". We both work to advance human rights in our day jobs and found it hypocritical to fight against infant genital mutilation and then mutilate our infant. Our Orthodox Rabbi knows that we did not circumcise and even the Chabad rebbetzin attended our son's bris shalom. Our son is accepted by the Jewish community, including the most religious members. While I do not know other members of our shul who choose not to circumcise, I do know many other orthodox Jews who choose not to circumcise and there is halakah to support this decision. Many members who found out (we don't advertise it but obviously we didn't have a mohel, so when people ask us about our mohel, it comes up), have told me that they wish they had known of this option. Pregnant women have come up to me and said they are hoping for a girl because of this issue. When they have a boy, they telll me that they wish they could be as strong as me and not circumcise but they are scared to follow the path they know is right. There was an outspoken rabbi on this issue who was a part of the Humanistic shul in DC (machar) who is against circumcision. I'd expect most of the Jews who belong to a Humanistic shul are unlikely to circumcise. I know that your children will be welcome there and all Reform shuls where Judaism passes from either the mother or the father (also halaka to support this).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

How about discussing this with your husband, your sons father, to get some concrete grounding. Sounds like you are confused, and I don't know how the opinions of strangers will help. Does your husband want him circumcised regardless of whether it's is during a traditional Bris, or at the hospital, or would he rather leave him uncircumcised.

I don't think he feels that strongly about it. I will probably have to decide. I don't know at the moment whether my aversion to those specific religious issues is pushing me in a direction where I am not taking into consideration the day-to-day differences of what it means to have a circumcised vs not penis. Although I understand how meaningful symbols and personal experiences can be, I generally decide things for my children based on practicality. Practicality could include things like, in this culture everyone is circumcised so it's going to make him feel like a pariah (not true, but just an example). So I wanted to hear from other people who made this decision and what concrete factors actually ended up making a difference to their experience.

DH's sister -- who I'm very close to -- told me and DH when we were in this place that the best sex of her life was with an intact man -- it's more pleasure for the woman, too -- and that she wishes she could find a Jewish man who was intact so she could raise her children Jewish. That clinched it for DH. He was also afraid that DS wasn't going to be able to find a Jewish woman and he's sister was like "Uh, no -- that's like _every_ Jewish woman's fantasy." He will not be a pariah.

[Anonymous]

I read pages 1-4, so I don't have all the information. It sounds like you and your husband have a strong relationship, so I would not be worried.

I would think of your relationships (both yours and your husband's) with your unborn son. My MIL admitted that she was stand-offish toward my husband partially because she knew she had to hurt him and didn't want to get too close, and maintained a unhealthy relationship with her son (they never hugged or said I love you) until he was an adult. We had heard that MILs can be the most judgemental, but my MIL was the most supportive.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks to the last three posters for those comments, I appreciate it. 11:55, I will definitely look into the book. I love the idea of a peaceful covenant -- I knew there were debates within Judaism about this, but not an alternate ritual.

Thinking about this more, I wonder about why the covenant was based on this specific act. Is it because one naturally protects one's genitals (and the survival of one's bloodline through reproduction) from injury and thus suffering an injury there represents turning one's survival over to God? I think in the time this practice began there were surely a lot more risks from circumcising than not, all kinds of infections and amputations...and the covenant has so much to do with God's protection of the Jews, their survival. I just wonder why it was not some other body part like an earlobe, something men and women could do. Seems like there must be a meaning behind it.

Ultimately it doesn't accord with my spiritual beliefs to think that God's protection will only be promised if my son undergoes circumcision. I thought at first of looking into medical benefits, but when I think historically about the risks of a medically unnecessary procedure it seems that the practice must have arisen and been maintained solely according to some other mode of thinking. I feel more and more that this would not be the right thing for us to do. DH and I have had some pretty interesting conversations about this, and we will check out the book and other viewpoints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-Perspective-Ronald-Goldman/dp/0964489562

We are very observant Jews and active members at an orthodox shul. We are shomer shabbat, kosher, and for the most part, very traditional. Our son had a bris on his 8th day, but we did not circumcise him. Some people call it a "Bris Shalom" (peaceful covenant as opposed to a bris milah) and choose to cut a string as a symbolic "cut". We both work to advance human rights in our day jobs and found it hypocritical to fight against infant genital mutilation and then mutilate our infant. Our Orthodox Rabbi knows that we did not circumcise and even the Chabad rebbetzin attended our son's bris shalom. Our son is accepted by the Jewish community, including the most religious members. While I do not know other members of our shul who choose not to circumcise, I do know many other orthodox Jews who choose not to circumcise and there is halakah to support this decision. Many members who found out (we don't advertise it but obviously we didn't have a mohel, so when people ask us about our mohel, it comes up), have told me that they wish they had known of this option. Pregnant women have come up to me and said they are hoping for a girl because of this issue. When they have a boy, they telll me that they wish they could be as strong as me and not circumcise but they are scared to follow the path they know is right. There was an outspoken rabbi on this issue who was a part of the Humanistic shul in DC (machar) who is against circumcision. I'd expect most of the Jews who belong to a Humanistic shul are unlikely to circumcise. I know that your children will be welcome there and all Reform shuls where Judaism passes from either the mother or the father (also halaka to support this).

Can yo say more about the halakeh support or provide a reference? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

OP again. Just looked up this about the brit shalom... really fascinating. She makes the same point about the difficulty of surviving the practice in the past:

http://www.beyondthebris.com/2012/04/choosing-brit-shalom-over-brit-milah.html?m=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-Perspective-Ronald-Goldman/dp/0964489562

We are very observant Jews and active members at an orthodox shul. We are shomer shabbat, kosher, and for the most part, very traditional. Our son had a bris on his 8th day, but we did not circumcise him. Some people call it a "Bris Shalom" (peaceful covenant as opposed to a bris milah) and choose to cut a string as a symbolic "cut". We both work to advance human rights in our day jobs and found it hypocritical to fight against infant genital mutilation and then mutilate our infant. Our Orthodox Rabbi knows that we did not circumcise and even the Chabad rebbetzin attended our son's bris shalom. Our son is accepted by the Jewish community, including the most religious members. While I do not know other members of our shul who choose not to circumcise, I do know many other orthodox Jews who choose not to circumcise and there is halakah to support this decision. Many members who found out (we don't advertise it but obviously we didn't have a mohel, so when people ask us about our mohel, it comes up), have told me that they wish they had known of this option. Pregnant women have come up to me and said they are hoping for a girl because of this issue. When they have a boy, they telll me that they wish they could be as strong as me and not circumcise but they are scared to follow the path they know is right. There was an outspoken rabbi on this issue who was a part of the Humanistic shul in DC (machar) who is against circumcision. I'd expect most of the Jews who belong to a Humanistic shul are unlikely to circumcise. I know that your children will be welcome there and all Reform shuls where Judaism passes from either the mother or the father (also halaka to support this).

Can yo say more about the halakeh support or provide a reference? Thanks.

NP. I don't think you'll get a reply from an orthodox Jew on Shabbat (today) or the next 3 days (Rosh Hashanah), but I do know that the reason reform believe that Judaism is passed through the father is strongly supported by biblical texts, including the fact that Isaac passed on Judaism (not his non-Jewish wife, who hadn't converted) all the way to Moses (who married an Egyptian, non-Jewish woman). So, we know that Judaism can be passed from the father alone, and it is strongly accepted that it can be passed from the mother alone, as well.

In regards to protecting children from harm, that is one of the most fundamental values of the Jewish people. It is considered the "first mitzvah" or first commandment. There is an obligation that every Jew has (and I'd argue every person has) to protect children: https://torahdownloads.com/shiur-1006301.html

A quick google search on biblical quotes for protecting children gave me this link, too (in case it is in doubt that all major religions hold it in very high-regard to protect children): https://www.openbible.info/topics/protecting_children

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to the last three posters for those comments, I appreciate it. 11:55, I will definitely look into the book. I love the idea of a peaceful covenant -- I knew there were debates within Judaism about this, but not an alternate ritual.

Thinking about this more, I wonder about why the covenant was based on this specific act. Is it because one naturally protects one's genitals (and the survival of one's bloodline through reproduction) from injury and thus suffering an injury there represents turning one's survival over to God? I think in the time this practice began there were surely a lot more risks from circumcising than not, all kinds of infections and amputations...and the covenant has so much to do with God's protection of the Jews, their survival. I just wonder why it was not some other body part like an earlobe, something men and women could do. Seems like there must be a meaning behind it.

Ultimately it doesn't accord with my spiritual beliefs to think that God's protection will only be promised if my son undergoes circumcision. I thought at first of looking into medical benefits, but when I think historically about the risks of a medically unnecessary procedure it seems that the practice must have arisen and been maintained solely according to some other mode of thinking. I feel more and more that this would not be the right thing for us to do. DH and I have had some pretty interesting conversations about this, and we will check out the book and other viewpoints.

Same NP as above. Blood-letting or male circumcision is a very common pagan ritual (which would have existed long before the invention of Judaism). Our ancient human ancestors worshiped the female because of her power to reproduce -- create another human being. They believed this power came from her menstrual cycle (probably because it stopped when she was pregnant and would start again when the miracle occurred). Since women got this "power" during puberty, it became custom for men to cut themselves (self-circumcise) during the same time. You can read about Nelson Mandela's self-circumcision experience online as an example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2352015/Nelson-Mandela-Circumcision-ceremony-teenage-boys-presidents-Xhosa-tribe-South-Africa.html (Fire shooting through my veins).

Of course, there were males who did not like this tradition, so to make sure it wasn't abandoned (perhaps to appease the "gods"), circumcision in many cultures was done as an infant. Indeed, when I visited Ghana, one thing that struck me as very interesting was that the circumcision their male infants after 7 days (the 8th day) -- the same as Jews. They say that this tradition was alive way before the advent of Judaism: https://berniceagyekwena.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/is-the-cultural-practice-of-male-circumcision-justifiable/

So, to make Judaism digestible to these cultures, they had to include many of their pagan rituals, including Sukkot (harvest festival) and bris (circumcision). Judaism originally had animal sacrifice, as well (which was a huge progress from the human sacrifice some other cultures were practicing at the time).

If you view Judaism in light of this history, it was one of the most progressive ideologies of its time. The fact that it allows debate (and both sides to be equally "right") over issues including gay marriage (there are Jews who believe that this is acceptable even under strict Torah scripture), feminism, and circumcision, it is a rarity in world religions today.

Weirdly, what got me obsessed with this history was the Da Vinchi Code (by Dan Brown) which interweaves a lot of history about the female god, etc that is factual in ancient pagan culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Just looked up this about the brit shalom... really fascinating. She makes the same point about the difficulty of surviving the practice in the past:

http://www.beyondthebris.com/2012/04/choosing-brit-shalom-over-brit-milah.html?m=1

Powerful, but it should come with a warning. It makes me really feel for the Jews who do this to their son -- I think it's harder for the moms and dads who are under pressure to hurt their son (waking up in the middle night, dry heaves, sweating, being blacklisted from family/friends -- wow!!) than the son who likely won't remember either way. That is not okay for a culture to pressure adults to do something they know is wrong. It's one thing if they know it's right, then it is fine (since it is still legal in the United States, but illegal in many developed nations). I did not circumcise and neither did any of my friends (Jewish and not). I know we are a unique crowd -- many of us homebirth, cloth-diaper, breast-feeding, homeschooling, etc -- but the "norm" of the people in my circle is not to do it.

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much to the poster(s) of the previous three posts. I actually learned something from a DCUM thread on circumcision. Truly a mitzvah.

[Anonymous]

OP, where do you live? In Rockville, there is a large secular Israeli community. I'll bet many share your views and your DH's views, and have grappled with these same issues. They could also provide some community without religion.

[Anonymous]

I'm a member of Ohev Sholom (Orthodox) in DC. On the second night (after the first day), the Rabbi's daughter got up during dinner. With dozens and dozens of pairs of eyes on her...

She said that the portion for the second day (when Abraham takes his son Isaac to sacrifice him for Gd) made her very angry, upset, confused, and sad. Why would Gd do such a thing?

Those present responded that Abraham trusted Gd that he was going to change his mind, or that he never was going to go through with it. But, that didn't satisfy her.

She thinks Gd was testing Abraham -- but not testing his faithfulness or loyalty to Gd. He was testing his ability to follow his moral compass -- to do the right thing -- to stand up for what he believed. If she is right (and as the Rabbi's daughter, she definitely isn't wrong), that means that Abraham didn't pass the test; he failed it. That could explain why Gd never speaks to Abraham again directly and only through his angels after that test -- Gd was disappointed.

How does that apply to this question? For many Jews today, our moral compass tells us that the bris is not an innocent rite of passage, but the male equivalent of female circumcision -- in other words, immoral & unethical infant genital mutilation. The Jewish Gd never asked for unwavering obedience. The Jewish Gd is asking us to find our moral compass, present it to Him and stand up -- not just to society, not just to our parent, not to just to tradition -- those would be easy in comparison. No, Gd is asking us to stand up to the Ultimate Parent, the Ultimate Judge, the Ultimate Everything, and say, "No, that is not okay, and I will not do it." Abraham failed Him, but let us not all fail Him.

I consider myself a very observant Jew. I am open orthodox. I follow, believe in, and admire Rabbi Herzfeld and everything he is doing for Judaism today (although I am obviously more open than him, and don't pretend to be speaking for him). The National Shul is more progressive than Kemp Mill "progressive" Jews and even more progressive than Modern Orthodox. But, nonetheless, I do belong to an orthodox shul. I do not believe that the bris milah applies to our culture anymore -- period. I will not fail the test that Abraham failed. Gd does not want me to hurt my child. He wants me to protect my child. He wants me to stand up to Him. I will not fail Gd. I will not fail my child. I will not fail my moral compass. That decision does not make me less of a Jew. I would argue that makes me more of one.

[Anonymous]

Jews are great. PP is a perfect example. Judaism is so dynamic. The Jews are dealing with it themselves! They'll figure it out!

[Anonymous]

Good luck to your husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a member of Ohev Sholom (Orthodox) in DC. On the second night (after the first day), the Rabbi's daughter got up during dinner. With dozens and dozens of pairs of eyes on her...

She said that the portion for the second day (when Abraham takes his son Isaac to sacrifice him for Gd) made her very angry, upset, confused, and sad. Why would Gd do such a thing?

Those present responded that Abraham trusted Gd that he was going to change his mind, or that he never was going to go through with it. But, that didn't satisfy her.

She thinks Gd was testing Abraham -- but not testing his faithfulness or loyalty to Gd. He was testing his ability to follow his moral compass -- to do the right thing -- to stand up for what he believed. If she is right (and as the Rabbi's daughter, she definitely isn't wrong), that means that Abraham didn't pass the test; he failed it. That could explain why Gd never speaks to Abraham again directly and only through his angels after that test -- Gd was disappointed.

How does that apply to this question? For many Jews today, our moral compass tells us that the bris is not an innocent rite of passage, but the male equivalent of female circumcision -- in other words, immoral & unethical infant genital mutilation. The Jewish Gd never asked for unwavering obedience. The Jewish Gd is asking us to find our moral compass, present it to Him and stand up -- not just to society, not just to our parent, not to just to tradition -- those would be easy in comparison. No, Gd is asking us to stand up to the Ultimate Parent, the Ultimate Judge, the Ultimate Everything, and say, "No, that is not okay, and I will not do it." Abraham failed Him, but let us not all fail Him.

I consider myself a very observant Jew. I am open orthodox. I follow, believe in, and admire Rabbi Herzfeld and everything he is doing for Judaism today (although I am obviously more open than him, and don't pretend to be speaking for him). The National Shul is more progressive than Kemp Mill "progressive" Jews and even more progressive than Modern Orthodox. But, nonetheless, I do belong to an orthodox shul. I do not believe that the bris milah applies to our culture anymore -- period. I will not fail the test that Abraham failed. Gd does not want me to hurt my child. He wants me to protect my child. He wants me to stand up to Him. I will not fail Gd. I will not fail my child. I will not fail my moral compass. That decision does not make me less of a Jew. I would argue that makes me more of one.

Interesting interpretation.