Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

Thanks. Can you tell me how that's made a difference in your day-to-day experience, to have them look alike? I can't really imagine all the scenarios, although I'm sure there are some.

As for Reform, I didn't know that. I would probably feel more comfortable in that context, given their views about gender. However we never really explored it because in Israel, those who actually practice Judaism don't consider Reform to be Judaism and the seculars don't know what to do with it. It's very much an American thing.

Are you planning to continue to live in America, or move to Israel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Convert married to a Jewish man here. Judaism in the US is a totally different animal than the Israeli experience. I understand and even identify with a lot of what you've said, while echoing what others have said about the Reform movement (and even parts of the Conservative movement) being a lot more opening and welcoming of 'inter-faith' (maybe inter-cultural in your case?) families. So please, try to hold off on painting with such a broad brush before exploring the continuum of American Judaism.

Re: circumcision
People have a lot of strong feelings on the issue, and we're all biased. It's a tough choice and it's great you're being thoughtful about it. Fathers often have a lot more psychological stuff wrapped up in the decision, and you should hear that out - as well as acknowledge that it's a pretty big deal as a cultural rite of passage for even many nonreligious Jews. Good luck - I hope you can reach a decision together.

Thanks, I understand that. To clarify, my husband doesn't really identify with American Judaism or seek a Jewish religious community here so it's likely not something my family would explore because of him. I myself don't have big stakes in "being Jewish." My personal view is that people seek out meaning for lots of different reasons, and in this case, that meaning would be tied to my relationships with my husband and his family and community. So their view of Judaism is what impacts my life directly, if that makes sense. I think it's wonderful that there are Reform/reconstructionist movements and am all for it, but it's just not something that will have bearing on what Judaism is in our lives for a number of reasons. I am intellectually curious about it as a human being & that's the extent of it.

I should have maybe put some of this into the original post but it seemed like it was complicated enough as it is. Thanks for the comment re: fathers' psychological stuff, will take that into account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think your use of the term "religious crap" tells me all I needs to know. Best of luck.

It is "religious crap," and religious crap is probably the main cause of humanity's pains right now. Talk to your husband -- if he is not that religious, he might agree.
We didn't cut our son and we don't regret it...

He probably would agree with your first statement TBH.

I have heard from moms of infants that it's generally easier not to have a circumcision. How old is your son? Is he of an age that he washes himself?

Hurting infant boys for 'ease'. Great concept.

[Anonymous]

Idea of matrilineal-only Jewish descent has no biblical basis and started in the Christian era. Reform has correctly recognized descent by either parent since 1983.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cut man and my son is intact. And it doesn't matter.

Honestly, 'my son's genitals should look like mine' is one of the creepiest and most bizarre concepts I've heard.

OK, thanks. By doesn't matter, I'm taking you to mean that it hasn't affected potty training, hygiene instruction, whatever -- right?

Did you ever explain why they look different or does your son just accept it without caring?

It hasn't affected those things. Correct.

My son and his sister asked about the difference and I explained that doctors used to thing it was an important thing to do but now they know it's fine to leave baby boys alone and many parents choose to.

OP here -- thank you. Down-to-earth and simple explanation that a child can understand. I remember my father had certain vaccination marks on his body that we didn't have, but the medical/historical explanation made sense to us. I guess that this could also work to some extent with the religious identity, since so many laws/prohibitions are no longer followed as communities evolve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think your use of the term "religious crap" tells me all I needs to know. Best of luck.

It is "religious crap," and religious crap is probably the main cause of humanity's pains right now. Talk to your husband -- if he is not that religious, he might agree.
We didn't cut our son and we don't regret it...

He probably would agree with your first statement TBH.

I have heard from moms of infants that it's generally easier not to have a circumcision. How old is your son? Is he of an age that he washes himself?

Hurting infant boys for 'ease'. Great concept.

Um... read first, then comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Idea of matrilineal-only Jewish descent has no biblical basis and started in the Christian era. Reform has correctly recognized descent by either parent since 1983.

What's their view on circumcision, do you know? Obviously that has a Biblical basis, but so do a lot of things that are no longer followed.

[Anonymous]

Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

If you are Jewish, even if you're nonreligious, the decision to go against thousands of years of tradition and not circumcise can feel much more momentous than just doing it. FWIW.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

Thanks. Can you tell me how that's made a difference in your day-to-day experience, to have them look alike? I can't really imagine all the scenarios, although I'm sure there are some.

As for Reform, I didn't know that. I would probably feel more comfortable in that context, given their views about gender. However we never really explored it because in Israel, those who actually practice Judaism don't consider Reform to be Judaism and the seculars don't know what to do with it. It's very much an American thing.

Are you planning to continue to live in America, or move to Israel?

We are not sure. But the family connection there will be a big part of their lives regardless, and I think it will have a more concrete impact on their identity than American Jewish communities we are not very active in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cut man and my son is intact. And it doesn't matter.

Honestly, 'my son's genitals should look like mine' is one of the creepiest and most bizarre concepts I've heard.

OK, thanks. By doesn't matter, I'm taking you to mean that it hasn't affected potty training, hygiene instruction, whatever -- right?

Did you ever explain why they look different or does your son just accept it without caring?

It hasn't affected those things. Correct.

My son and his sister asked about the difference and I explained that doctors used to thing it was an important thing to do but now they know it's fine to leave baby boys alone and many parents choose to.

OP here -- thank you. Down-to-earth and simple explanation that a child can understand. I remember my father had certain vaccination marks on his body that we didn't have, but the medical/historical explanation made sense to us. I guess that this could also work to some extent with the religious identity, since so many laws/prohibitions are no longer followed as communities evolve.

FWIW, my husband is cut and our children are intact and the "not looking like daddy" thing has never come up. Our boys are 11 and 8.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am also a non-Jewish woman married to a Jewish man. We had a lot of discussions about this issue before our son was born. My husband is not religious, but wanted to circumcise our son basically because he felt it was "weird" not to be circumcised. Judaism was about a 10% factor in his preference, I would estimate. If Judaism hadn't been an issue, I probably would have been about 30% against circumcision based on the idea that it's unnecessary and doesn't clearly confer health benefits. But the Judaism issue made me more 50/50 because I want my kids to have at least some degree of Jewish identity. I thought, what if my son grows up and wants to identify as Jewish and has to have an adult circumcision? That would be terrible (I assume).

As it happened, we decided to circumcise. But then my husband changed his mind after our son was born when he had a number of other medical problems.

I agree with the PPs that you shouldn't make this issue the battleground for your feelings about Judaism. If your husband wants to circumcise and you aren't really strongly against it, I would go ahead and do it. I think the fact that the father is the one with a penis gives him more than a 50% vote on this. If he really doesn't care and you are against it for non-religion-related reasons, then OK, don't do it.

I also think you should also try to get a handle on your feelings about Judaism by reading about the reform or reconstructionist movements. They do not think it's necessary for the mother to be Jewish in order for the kid to be Jewish, for instance. If you are generalizing that the religion as a whole is sexist based on the rules of the ruling rabbinate in Israel, which is definitely very extreme, you are not giving the whole tradition and identity a fair shake. If it is important to your husband at all I think you owe it to him to have a more informed and balanced approach.

Just to go back to this point... I've had that thought also. However, I've also seen cases of boys who are suing their parents for circumcising them as infants because they feel their parents violated their right to make a decision concerning their own foreskin. I have no idea how my son is going to feel about this. Regarding being Jewish when he gets older, like your son, he'd have to undergo a full rabbinic conversion which would make it pretty clear that he had not been considered Jewish prior to that, regardless of what he thought about himself. So maybe having the procedure -- if that's what he feels would make him legitimately Jewish -- would be the least of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cut man and my son is intact. And it doesn't matter.

Honestly, 'my son's genitals should look like mine' is one of the creepiest and most bizarre concepts I've heard.

OK, thanks. By doesn't matter, I'm taking you to mean that it hasn't affected potty training, hygiene instruction, whatever -- right?

Did you ever explain why they look different or does your son just accept it without caring?

It hasn't affected those things. Correct.

My son and his sister asked about the difference and I explained that doctors used to thing it was an important thing to do but now they know it's fine to leave baby boys alone and many parents choose to.

OP here -- thank you. Down-to-earth and simple explanation that a child can understand. I remember my father had certain vaccination marks on his body that we didn't have, but the medical/historical explanation made sense to us. I guess that this could also work to some extent with the religious identity, since so many laws/prohibitions are no longer followed as communities evolve.

FWIW, my husband is cut and our children are intact and the "not looking like daddy" thing has never come up. Our boys are 11 and 8.

Likewise, both my husband and son are circ'd and DS has never commented on his father's penis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

If you are Jewish, even if you're nonreligious, the decision to go against thousands of years of tradition and not circumcise can feel much more momentous than just doing it. FWIW.

This was how I felt. And now I regret it. It doesn't consume me, but if I could go back and do it again i would not have my boys circumcised.

- Jewish father of two boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most boys in the US who are circumcised are not Jewish.

If you are Jewish, even if you're nonreligious, the decision to go against thousands of years of tradition and not circumcise can feel much more momentous than just doing it. FWIW.

This was how I felt. And now I regret it. It doesn't consume me, but if I could go back and do it again i would not have my boys circumcised.

- Jewish father of two boys.

Thanks for sharing. I think my husband did feel like you initially, but what shifted things for him was attending an actual circumcision (mohel who was a dr, in a clinic setting) where as the godfather he had to hold down the baby during the procedure. He said he'd never felt someone resist something so powerfully. I was in the room with several other men, all of whom did not want to watch and see what was happening. I did, because I want to make the decision based on what it means in reality and this is a small part of that.

Anyway, that was a while ago but it did sort of open up the question for him of why we're doing this -- otherwise, I think the weight of tradition would have been a deciding factor. If you don't mind telling me why you would change your decision now, especially if it has to do with how it impacts your son's lives, I'd appreciate it.

[Anonymous]

I am Jewish mother of 2 boys. I did not care either way, my DH was a 100% for it. The whole procedures took less than a minute. Both boys were numbed. My first did not even wake up, my second cried a little but was content with breastfeeding. Do I regret it? No!. It heeled beautifully. Do whatever you think is right, honestly, no one cares what you do it or how it looks.