Honest question for liberals about diversity/multiculturalism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

*thinks Trump is a racist* *lives in leafy, affluent neighborhood, sends kids to exclusive private/public schools, and only ever comes in contact with poor minorities if they're cleaning her house or serving her at Chipotle*

*thinks capitalism is destroying America* *shares her opinion on Facebook and Twitter by using an Apple computer/phone, while sipping on her Starbucks*

It's par for the course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

Perhaps. But I did when I had my first real job. That's what I could afford. I did not make any good friends although people were cordial to me. But I wouldn't want to live among whites in the poor parts of Appalachia, either.

[Anonymous]

I think Trump is racist and I live in a 70% black neighborhood and send my kids to public school. And no, I'm not an iPhone user, my phone's an Android because I prefer open source to proprietary tech, and sorry, but I can't stand Starbucks, it's overpriced and over-roasted. Wrong on every single count. You seem to be living in some kind of warped fantasy land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Reading comprehension is important. I'm not talking about just lily-white areas, I'm talking about areas that are socioeconomically homogenous. (Which often happen to be racially homogenous as well because race/SES are often linked.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

I promise you that not everyone who thinks Trump is a racist can be described as above. There are certainly people who do and say those things, but those people are not the majority of any major demographic group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still no answer on what's been "taken away?"

So loud and vocal one minute, yet complete silence now...

Let’s see. Here are some things that I believe we are losing:

1. Tolerance on college campuses. In the name of “diversity,” colleges now have “safe spaces” for people to go to “relax” and “express their ideas.” But, of course, those spaces are only safe if you hold the same liberal views that colleges teach. Conservative speakers are rarely invited to college campuses.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.

This is way off topic now. We were talking about diversity/multiculturalism, NOT conservative talking points. Do not make every issue political.

But since you started, let me try to answer it point by point.

1. Tolerance on college campuses.
It is the prerogative of what the students and the college want. Majority rule is democracy. What the majority wants they get. You cant force your ideas on students or anybody else. Nobody is forcing the students to confirm. Its always been the way of life. Students are ideological and liberalism lends well to that idealism of equality, inequity, equal distribution etc. It isn't any different than the 50s or 60s or 70s. The younger generation drives the social change and that becomes the norm.

2. Tolerance for people who hold different views. If one believes in traditional marriage or gender specific locker rooms, they are dismissed as homophobic or bigoted.
This applies the other way too. Why should ANY GROUP be discriminated based on any criteria. Dont cry reverse discrimination when pointed to discrimination. It doesn't work.

3. Religious tolerance. If a baker chooses not to make a cake or cupcakes for a gay wedding on religious grounds, that baker is sued and is in danger of losing his/her livelihood.
Is the baker in business to make money or to ADJUDICATE on legal matters AFTER the supreme court has passed its judgment? Besides do not generalize and make it simplistic. It is not as simple as you say. Do you know what happened to cases when the baker was sued? PLEASE FOLLOWUP and then post if the baker shut down or if the court ruled against the bakers right to sell to whoever? DO NOT TRY TO HOODWINK , nobody is a fool.

4. The concept that all people should be respected and not all points of view should be respected. Self-explanatory.
Exactly. So you show respect to what the majority people and what the highest court has adjudicated.

5. The concept that the best person for the job should be the one hired. Due to affirmative action, the strongest candidate for a job may very well NOT be the one that is hired.
This is what happens in the private sector so much so there is hue and cry that asians take 40% of technical, professional and finance jobs even though they are only 5% of the population. You cant have the cake and eat it too. If it is purely merit based then the result may not be what you anticipate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

Perhaps. But I did when I had my first real job. That's what I could afford. I did not make any good friends although people were cordial to me. But I wouldn't want to live among whites in the poor parts of Appalachia, either.

That's the point. By saying, "that's what I could afford" you imply that leaving in racially/socioeconomically diverse areas was merely something you had to do, and once you could afford to do otherwise, you sought out higher SES areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, so still nothing legitimately lost...

In your opinion.

The only thing you've lost is this argument.

I am posting this last message, and then I am done with this thread because, as I pointed out, tolerance of other views has been lost.
You asked what has been lost. I gave you a list. Whether you agree or not, I really don’t care.
I will not debate with a person who is determined to have the last word just for the sake of having the last word. I am sure you are a real peach.

You posted what you think were some points. I gave valid counterpoints and debunked some of your points, challenging you to think a little harder, and do a little better. But instead of engaging your grey matter and instead of doing a bit of deeper soul searching you just want to dodge, deflect and run away.

*shrug*

Whatever.

But you never ever acknowledged that there might be even the smallest grain of truth in what he said. That is why you are not polite. That is why you hurt the cause of diversity more than you help. That is why I suspect you are doing this mostly because you like to fight and feel like Jonathan Edwards instead of because you truely care about diversity. If you truly cared about diversity, you would recognize first the humanity of the other before you try to change their minds.

Project much? It is you, not I, who is attacking diversity and defending bigotry. Bigotry is in itself about fundamentally denying the humanity of others, and that's the central issue here.

And by the way, if Rosa Parks were "polite" she would still be sitting in the back of the bus and that would certainly not have led to any minds being changed.

Rosa Parks was perfectly polite. She was the epitome of politeness. Maybe you just were never taught good manners?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Actually, the reason I make these comments is because I live in Silver Spring, but know a lot of people who live in areas like Bethesda or North Arlington or Chevy Chase and hear comments all the time from people in this areas, IRL but also on here if I venture into real estate or public schools forums, about how crappy Silver Spring is, how I'm putting my kids in danger because I *gasp* send them to SS public schools/how they'll never get into a "good" college, and how I'm basically stupid for living here when I *could* afford to live somewhere "nicer". But really the only difference between my area and schools and their area and schools is that there's more brown people and/or poor people (which, unfortunately, are strongly correlated in this country) and that's why it's really frustrating, especially from people who purport to be anti-racism and anti-Trump (both of which I am, obviously).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Reading comprehension is important. I'm not talking about just lily-white areas, I'm talking about areas that are socioeconomically homogenous. (Which often happen to be racially homogenous as well because race/SES are often linked.)

Not sure what point you are driving at. Socioeconomically homogenous areas are far more likely to harbor bigotry toward anyone who isn't cut from that same socioeconomically homogenous cloth. Those areas, when whites are involved, tend to lean conservative and support Trump.

Meanwhile the more socioeconomically diverse areas tend to lean liberal, tend to recognize the racism, and are anti-Trump.

You seem to be a quite confused, thinking that it's reversed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Actually, the reason I make these comments is because I live in Silver Spring, but know a lot of people who live in areas like Bethesda or North Arlington or Chevy Chase and hear comments all the time from people in this areas, IRL but also on here if I venture into real estate or public schools forums, about how crappy Silver Spring is, how I'm putting my kids in danger because I *gasp* send them to SS public schools/how they'll never get into a "good" college, and how I'm basically stupid for living here when I *could* afford to live somewhere "nicer". But really the only difference between my area and schools and their area and schools is that there's more brown people and/or poor people (which, unfortunately, are strongly correlated in this country) and that's why it's really frustrating, especially from people who purport to be anti-racism and anti-Trump (both of which I am, obviously).

No, that is certainly not the only difference. The other difference is the average income of the people. Calling somebody who has economic class predjudices a racist will hurt both race relations and economic class relations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Reading comprehension is important. I'm not talking about just lily-white areas, I'm talking about areas that are socioeconomically homogenous. (Which often happen to be racially homogenous as well because race/SES are often linked.)

Not sure what point you are driving at. Socioeconomically homogenous areas are far more likely to harbor bigotry toward anyone who isn't cut from that same socioeconomically homogenous cloth. Those areas, when whites are involved, tend to lean conservative and support Trump.

Meanwhile the more socioeconomically diverse areas tend to lean liberal, tend to recognize the racism, and are anti-Trump.

You seem to be a quite confused, thinking that it's reversed.

It is slightly different than that. Look at http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/upshot/the-geography-of-trumpism.html. to quote it

The places where Trump has done well cut across many of the usual fault lines of American politics — North and South, liberal and conservative, rural and suburban. One element common to a significant share of his supporters is that they have largely missed the generation-long transition of the United States away from manufacturing and into a diverse, information-driven economy deeply intertwined with the rest of the world.

[Anonymous]

Also this quote from the same article

Despite evidence that some individual Trump voters are driven by racial hostility, this analysis didn’t show a particularly powerful relationship between the racial breakdown of a county and its likelihood of voting for Trump. There are Trump-supporting counties with both very high and very low proportions of African-Americans, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of people are OK with different cultures/races/etc. as long as such are "like them" in the sense that they value education, have advanced degrees, etc. So they would be with their kids going to a 50% Hispanic school if say, those Hispanics were the children of doctors and lawyers, but certainly would never send their kids to a school comprised of working class, ESOL students.

I know many who claim to be on board with diversity, think Trump is a racist, yet would absolutely never even entertain the idea of living somewhere like South Arlington or PG or Silver Spring.

This is a good point.

If you're trying to suggest that the people calling Trump racist are hypocrites from the comfort of primarily white neighborhoods, then I think you are way off on that one...

I think that poster is pretty spot on.

What exactly is it, then, if the obsessions over FARM rates and ESOL rates and having your kids with a good "peer group" isn't blatant racism/classism? I mean really, saying"I send my kid to XYZ school for the better peer group" or "we moved from [city neighborhood] to [affluent enclave] because it's nicer and the schools are better", sentiments frequently shared on DCUM, is no different than saying "I send my kid to XYZ school because there's fewer brown/poor children that might be a bad influence on mine." It's just more PC.

Um, suuuure. Meanwhile I'll note that there are far more white conservatives living in the lily-white suburban enclaves, while being scarce to be found in the primarily minority neighborhoods and schools. It's mostly young white progressives moving into those more diverse neighborhoods.

You should check and count how much glass is around your own home before presuming to cast that stone at someone else's.

Actually, the reason I make these comments is because I live in Silver Spring, but know a lot of people who live in areas like Bethesda or North Arlington or Chevy Chase and hear comments all the time from people in this areas, IRL but also on here if I venture into real estate or public schools forums, about how crappy Silver Spring is, how I'm putting my kids in danger because I *gasp* send them to SS public schools/how they'll never get into a "good" college, and how I'm basically stupid for living here when I *could* afford to live somewhere "nicer". But really the only difference between my area and schools and their area and schools is that there's more brown people and/or poor people (which, unfortunately, are strongly correlated in this country) and that's why it's really frustrating, especially from people who purport to be anti-racism and anti-Trump (both of which I am, obviously).

Well your two choices are the white conservatives who won't live where you live because it's not white enough and the progressive Trump haters like me who happily *gasp* live right in DC, and not up in Ward 3 or the predominantly white DC neighborhoods but *double gasp* a 70% black neighborhood and who *triple gasp* actually sends their kid to a public school (granted, a charter but public nonetheless) rather than private school.

So if you want to be frustrated and throw stones, fine but you need to be looking in the opposite direction.