School Shooting in Michigan. 3 Teens DEAD. 1 15-yr old suspect in custody.

[Anonymous]

Are the kids at this high school doing remote learning right now or just...in limbo?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at his old YouTube videos from a few years ago, he appears like a sweet, polite child talking about his boat collection and playing basketball with a group of friends; in one he his conscientious of the cost of a souvenir at a bear attraction.His parents can use these as evidence that they had no idea of his decline into a dark world.

Even the day of, while they had him locked in an office (?) for 2 hours -- waiting for his parents to arrive from work? -- he asked if he could do his science homework because he was worried about missing class work!

Is it possible the line of questioning from school officials to he and his parents is maybe what triggered something in him?

This ridiculous fan fiction ignores the fact that he had the gun and ammunition on his person.

Fan fiction? It's on the record fact he was asking if he could do science homework while in the office Tuesday morning, because he was worried about missing class assignments:
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/superintendent-asks-for-third-party-review-on-events-that-led-up-to-oxford-high-school-shooting.html

The science thing is odd and it either is evidence that he was a sociopath calmly pretending it was all fine or (more likely) a kid with a significant cognitive disconnect. My own kid was in a police car being taken to an ER for suicidal threats and was making plans about buying tickets for something they wanted to do. I was thinking WTF do they not realize if they kill themselves we will not be attending that. Their brains can just run on two totally different tracks.

Also, if the kid denied suicidal ideation and told the counselor it was just for a video game he was designing, I’m really not sure most counselors would have done anything differently for a kid that has not disciplinary history and seemed to be otherwise engaged in school and responding appropriately to questions. I might not be understanding the totality of what they had, though.

My take is that the counselors were asking what might about to screening questions and may not have had the skill set for this level of immediate assessment the way someone experienced in psych assessment would. The note was an indicator of suicidal ideation and as such would have warranted a check of locker and backpack and maybe requiring parents to confirm guns were CURRENTLY secure to rule out access to weapons at the time.

I was thinking a little differently, that the counselors were focused on the kid's mental health, but erred on what they thought would keep him safe-- IOW, they thought he'd be safer at school than home alone where he could self-harm. If the principal and vice principals had been looped in, they would have brought the mindset of assuring the safety of everyone else from this kid as well. Counselors are geared toward helping the individuals in front of them, while principals are tasked with managing the entire school. The problem was that the kid was a danger to self and others, so there was a mismatch between the nature and scope of the problem and the responsibilities of the particular school personnel who were making the decisions that day. Same with the school resource officer, whose primary responsibility is to the school as a whole. His involvement would have almost surely made a difference.

Long way of saying that the principal would have probably insisted on checking his backpack.

Also, I bet the counselor sitting there with the kid for all that time, was falsely reassured watching the kid worry about his science homework and other normal behavior. A principal would have probably been coming in and out and would be less likely to let his skepticism down.

Just speculating here, obviously, but it's good to remember that these are all regular human beings acting as humans do-- They bring their own preconceived ideas, gut instincts, empathy, bias, naïveté, analytic skills, good intentions, flawed reasoning and just human imperfection to every situation.

Great post and perspective shared. Everyone has their blind spots.

Wait--school admin was NOT involved at the time? I completely missed it if that's the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

I think it's both. The prosecutor seems to be campaigning for higher office with every move she makes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

I think it's both. The prosecutor seems to be campaigning for higher office with every move she makes.

Not sure it is her that offends you so much. Don't worry, no one is going to take our guns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at his old YouTube videos from a few years ago, he appears like a sweet, polite child talking about his boat collection and playing basketball with a group of friends; in one he his conscientious of the cost of a souvenir at a bear attraction.His parents can use these as evidence that they had no idea of his decline into a dark world.

Even the day of, while they had him locked in an office (?) for 2 hours -- waiting for his parents to arrive from work? -- he asked if he could do his science homework because he was worried about missing class work!

Is it possible the line of questioning from school officials to he and his parents is maybe what triggered something in him?

This ridiculous fan fiction ignores the fact that he had the gun and ammunition on his person.

Fan fiction? It's on the record fact he was asking if he could do science homework while in the office Tuesday morning, because he was worried about missing class assignments:
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/superintendent-asks-for-third-party-review-on-events-that-led-up-to-oxford-high-school-shooting.html

The science thing is odd and it either is evidence that he was a sociopath calmly pretending it was all fine or (more likely) a kid with a significant cognitive disconnect. My own kid was in a police car being taken to an ER for suicidal threats and was making plans about buying tickets for something they wanted to do. I was thinking WTF do they not realize if they kill themselves we will not be attending that. Their brains can just run on two totally different tracks.

Also, if the kid denied suicidal ideation and told the counselor it was just for a video game he was designing, I’m really not sure most counselors would have done anything differently for a kid that has not disciplinary history and seemed to be otherwise engaged in school and responding appropriately to questions. I might not be understanding the totality of what they had, though.

My take is that the counselors were asking what might about to screening questions and may not have had the skill set for this level of immediate assessment the way someone experienced in psych assessment would. The note was an indicator of suicidal ideation and as such would have warranted a check of locker and backpack and maybe requiring parents to confirm guns were CURRENTLY secure to rule out access to weapons at the time.

I was thinking a little differently, that the counselors were focused on the kid's mental health, but erred on what they thought would keep him safe-- IOW, they thought he'd be safer at school than home alone where he could self-harm. If the principal and vice principals had been looped in, they would have brought the mindset of assuring the safety of everyone else from this kid as well. Counselors are geared toward helping the individuals in front of them, while principals are tasked with managing the entire school. The problem was that the kid was a danger to self and others, so there was a mismatch between the nature and scope of the problem and the responsibilities of the particular school personnel who were making the decisions that day. Same with the school resource officer, whose primary responsibility is to the school as a whole. His involvement would have almost surely made a difference.

Long way of saying that the principal would have probably insisted on checking his backpack.

Also, I bet the counselor sitting there with the kid for all that time, was falsely reassured watching the kid worry about his science homework and other normal behavior. A principal would have probably been coming in and out and would be less likely to let his skepticism down.

Just speculating here, obviously, but it's good to remember that these are all regular human beings acting as humans do-- They bring their own preconceived ideas, gut instincts, empathy, bias, naïveté, analytic skills, good intentions, flawed reasoning and just human imperfection to every situation.

Great post and perspective shared. Everyone has their blind spots.

Wait--school admin was NOT involved at the time? I completely missed it if that's the case.

The school superintendent is claiming the Principal/AP were not notified (hard to believe) and the Sheriff has stated the SRO was not looped in.

[Anonymous]

There are two assistant principals, fyi. Is there any school where being "sent to the office" lands the kid in the guidance counselor's office instead of with one principal, perhaps not the main, but an assistant? And I've never seen a guidance office separate from the administration -- everyone is in the same area of the school, connected by short office halls. It would be hard to miss a kid being quarantined for hours and parents being summoned for an emergency meeting. No chance the principal and both assistant principals had no idea. I think the super's letter is using weasel words and lying by omission and the "investigation" is just to give him enough time to plan his retirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

I think it's both. The prosecutor seems to be campaigning for higher office with every move she makes.

She seemed shaken and sincere to me.

Her honesty (about the school's possible errors) was refreshing.

We are much harder on women than men, that is a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Bwhahaha, I'll just tell Oak Park and Ferndale that they are part of Michigan's wealthiest county and better keep up the standard just like Bloomfield hills and Birmingham.

Hint: Oxford is closer in wealth to the first two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Social workers are much more effective in these types of situations. Despite "only" having a Masters degree.

But it is EXTREMELY difficult to predict danger with accuracy, even for highly trained forensic psychologists. The "science" is just not that developed.

Of course, after the fact when you are posting on DCUM, the answer is obvious.

But there are thousands of poorly paid professionals making such judgement calls everyday in the US.

Their work would certainly be less high stakes in other countries, where guns are not so widely available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feherty the heck is freep?

Detroit Free Press. Sorry. One of the article linked in this thread was from there, and their web address is freep.com.

Yeah, but it isn’t free. You have to pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Social workers are much more effective in these types of situations. Despite "only" having a Masters degree.

But it is EXTREMELY difficult to predict danger with accuracy, even for highly trained forensic psychologists. The "science" is just not that developed.

Of course, after the fact when you are posting on DCUM, the answer is obvious.

But there are thousands of poorly paid professionals making such judgement calls everyday in the US.

Their work would certainly be less high stakes in other countries, where guns are not so widely available.

There was absolutely no harm to detaining him, searching is backpack and locker, and inquiring about firearms in the home. Also no harm to calling the police and letting them make the call on safety. If it all ended up being an overreaction in hindsight, who cares? Maybe the kid would learn not to search for ammo at school or draw violent psycho drawings. As it is, it would NOT have been an overreaction and 4 kids would still be alive. The emphasis should have been on harm reduction/regret minimization.

[Anonymous]

Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages of new $500k to $1mn plus homes in Oxford, Oxford Township, and Metamora Township within the district's boundaries. This isn't some aww shucks backwater rust belt exurb. And take a look at the whopping salaries of the bureaucracy at the Oakland County ISD, which is the umbrella over Oxford schools:

https://www.mackinac.org/salaries?report=education...rt=wage2020-desc&filter=oakland+county%20intermediate

[Anonymous]

Please stop saying "call the police." There is a full-time sheriff's deputy in that school all day. It was clearly deliberate to not loop him in on Monday or Tuesday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages of new $500k to $1mn plus homes in Oxford, Oxford Township, and Metamora Township within the district's boundaries. This isn't some aww shucks backwater rust belt exurb. And take a look at the whopping salaries of the bureaucracy at the Oakland County ISD, which is the umbrella over Oxford schools:

https://www.mackinac.org/salaries?report=education...rt=wage2020-desc&filter=oakland+county%20intermediate

Also from Zillow:
The typical home value of homes in Oxford is $350,830. This value is seasonally adjusted and only includes the middle price tier of homes. Oxford home values have gone up 16.3% over the past year.

And the population:
The average household income in Oxford is $80,894 with a poverty rate of 7.14%.


They are not an aw-shucks backwater? Who said that? But they are not a wealthy area overall. Wealthier homeowners have been building there with the idea of getting a large house with more land, but the original population is still there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages of new $500k to $1mn plus homes in Oxford, Oxford Township, and Metamora Township within the district's boundaries. This isn't some aww shucks backwater rust belt exurb. And take a look at the whopping salaries of the bureaucracy at the Oakland County ISD, which is the umbrella over Oxford schools:

https://www.mackinac.org/salaries?report=education...rt=wage2020-desc&filter=oakland+county%20intermediate

Also from Zillow:
The typical home value of homes in Oxford is $350,830. This value is seasonally adjusted and only includes the middle price tier of homes. Oxford home values have gone up 16.3% over the past year.

And the population:
The average household income in Oxford is $80,894 with a poverty rate of 7.14%.


They are not an aw-shucks backwater? Who said that? But they are not a wealthy area overall. Wealthier homeowners have been building there with the idea of getting a large house with more land, but the original population is still there.

What is your point? I don't see what the average price of homes has to do with anything. We've already established that rich kids can and do shoot up schools.