Advice Needed: parents who both work long hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks all. We both work in law. DH is working on many more complicated deals now which is why the hours are so bad.

I am at a different firm that is also pretty demanding. Neither of us really has the ability to but back our hours and while I could take somewhat of a step back with less pay,
I can’t find any firms that actually have that option. No one wants a lawyer who is only willing to work 40 hours per week. I have interviewed for in house jobs too in the past but nothing has been the right fit.

I really don’t want to outsource more related to my kids because I want to be with them, which is my top priority in the mornings and after work until they go to bed.

We need a good income because we have one in private elementary, eventually two, a nice house, nice cars, etc. we could certainly be a bit more frugal with cars and things, but not education.

Don’t mommy track unless you find something you really like that pays reasonably well.

I’m a lawyer and have been in relationships with many big law lawyers. There’s no reason your husband should not be able to take more of a break during the evening when the kids are awake. Maybe not every night if he has to jump on a call, but he should not be regularly working straight through till nine except for a quick dinner. He should take a break for a couple hours to he,o with the kids and house, then work till ten or so once they are in bed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP, I'm new to this thread, but what I find confusing is that you have a nanny from 8:30-5:30, yet you are spending your before/after work time with kids cooking, cleaning, and doing laundry. Our nanny does basic tidying and dishes (we have a housekeeper for actual cleaning, as do you), kids' laundry, and meal prep. That's a huge reduction in day-to-day tasks. She enlists the kids (4 and 7 y.o.) in all of these things as well. While nanny is working, she helps with school projects and she keeps me informed of key schedules. Your nanny should be doing all of these things!

Beyond that, though, something has to give. DH and I are in tech, and he outearns me by 2-3x. He does work longer hours than me and travels more than me. I was offered a job that paid more than his, but it was more inflexible than my current job. DH and I discussed. He said, you should take it and we'll hire more help. I said I would only take it if he contributed more at home, since I didn't want 60+ hours/wk of childcare, and I didn't want to be working longer hours and cooking/cleaning in my non-paid work time. Now, I earn ~1/3 what I could. But, I've found a niche where I am invaluable to my employer, and I get to dictate a lot of terms about what I spend my time doing and how my schedule is structured. I don't have as prestigious of an employer as I could, and I haven't climbed the ladder as fast I might prefer, which are trade offs. But this works for me. If I were on a BigLaw partner track, I would hire a lot more help, because my mental/emotional/physical health is critical to my family's well-being. Life's way too short to spend your time barely surviving.

[Anonymous]

I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

there are plenty of government jobs that are 9-5. OP can only make decisions for herself. Her DH is high earner who wants to spend his money and she’s not going to change him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Well that’s what a lot of lawyers do. It’s par for the course. You don’t have to work between the hours of 630 and nine most of the time. You might occasionally have a client or someone senior to you who insists on scheduling a call during those hours, but generally you can get away with taking an hour or two off (while checking your phone to make sure you don’t miss anything timely) and then getting back on the computer and working once the kids are in bed. That’s very standard. I am a client and I have no issue with getting on a call at nine or 10 PM instead of 7 PM if somebody wants to have dinner with their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

there are plenty of government jobs that are 9-5. OP can only make decisions for herself. Her DH is high earner who wants to spend his money and she’s not going to change him.

That’s bullshit. They’re his kids too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Well that’s what a lot of lawyers do. It’s par for the course. You don’t have to work between the hours of 630 and nine most of the time. You might occasionally have a client or someone senior to you who insists on scheduling a call during those hours, but generally you can get away with taking an hour or two off (while checking your phone to make sure you don’t miss anything timely) and then getting back on the computer and working once the kids are in bed. That’s very standard. I am a client and I have no issue with getting on a call at nine or 10 PM instead of 7 PM if somebody wants to have dinner with their kids.

even if that’s true (and it isn’t for a lot of people) that hour off is always contingent on the work - not a reliable part of a family routine. It only really works in the “dad” model where he can just drop in whenever he feels like it/time permits, and not have to worry about the actual work of parenting. the job owns you. and you really can’t have two parents in that mode, not unless you go the full-on household staff route. they have young kids - you can’t parent in between conference calls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

there are plenty of government jobs that are 9-5. OP can only make decisions for herself. Her DH is high earner who wants to spend his money and she’s not going to change him.

That’s bullshit. They’re his kids too.

Do you actually think Mr “My kids can only go to private school” is going to downshift? He’s not. OP needs to face it - she has a sucky job for parenting, with or without a more participatory DH. Even if she gets her DH to get off the phone for an odd hour every evening, that’s not going to change the material conditions of her life. Because her demands make no sense as a matter of physics - you can’t have two high-stress jobs, be unwilling to earn less than 750k, and also refuse to get an au pair, and expect to have any semblance of comfort at home.

[Anonymous]

If you have a full time nanny, she should be taking the oldest to school, bathing the kids, doing their laundry and meals and packing the lunch for the oldest. Order groceries to be delivered. Your post makes no sense if you are doing all that and you have a housekeeper and full time nanny. If they aren't doing their job, fire them and hire someone who will. However, your kids still need your time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

OP has received plenty of tips about how to outsource more. She needs to decide whether she wants to outsource more. I think she has plenty of non-working hours. They are similar to the non-working hours I have. But I refuse to spend them cooking and cleaning, so we do what it takes to avoid that. This is a combination of, outsourcing a lot more than OP does, tolerating more mess than I'd prefer, ordering take-out sometimes, and simply relinquishing some stuff to DH, however he does it. They are his kids too. If he wants his kids to have the quality of nutrition and health that a 13 hour/day with no breaks schedules allows, so be it. As it turns out, my DH did not want that for his kids, so he started to prioritize certain things when I stopped just taking care of it. Not every DH will do that, though, and so each of us needs to decide where our realistic comfort levels are. DH's comfort levels for certain things are much lower than mine, so I do more for our kids than he does. It's not right or fair...it's what is.

OP can't make her DH work less by fiat. She can ask, she can plead, she can do less, or she can leave. Those are the options she controls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Wife of the big law partner here: my husband does dinner and bedtime with the kids every night. I clean while he does bath and stories. From 5:30-7 he is 100% with the kids. It's definitely possible. Her husband needs to pitch in more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP, I'm also a lawyer and I understand your situation more than some on here. My kids are also in private school (I was as well and really wanted it for my kids), we built our dream house, drive the cars we want, save for college, etc.

With a 2-year old it's hard because your nanny is mostly going to spend their time with them, but I would suggest increasing their hours by another 30-60 minutes each day, if they're agreeable to that. I know that's all OT, which is time and a half (we still have a full-time nanny even though our kids are now in elementary school), so it doesn't come cheap, BUT some extra time after you've gotten home could allow the nanny to do the stuff she wasn't able to do during the day while she was with the 2-year old. With only that one at home, she should be able to handle the kids laundry, including beds, yes? One load per day would help with that. For your laundry, I would suggest looking into services to see if some of it you can outsource. Or, get a maid-cleaning service that will do your laundry, or at least your sheets and towels, leaving you with only your clothes.

For cooking, I think you might need to adjust your expectations a bit. Kids love simple things, and while you still have a little one who isn't in school, these may be the years where you agree to some quicker, easier stuff instead of things that take more time. You could also ask the nanny to help with food prep during the day or in the evenings. We used to have our nanny prepare a marinade and put the chicken in it, for example, or cut up the vegetables for stir fry, start the rice cooker, make the marinara sauce. Again, we did all of this with her agreement but she was willing to do it, and those little things really helped.

Schedules I would work on one weekend day when you and your husband agree that you will be off work. Get a sitter and go to Starbucks for two hours and plan out the next few months. It's much harder and more overwhelming to do it all the time because then it feels like it won't ever get done, but it's one of those things that if you just put the time into it you'll realize you can knock it out in one sitting.

Projects are just always going to come up, so that's when you need to have flexibility. That can come in the form of ordering pizza for dinner or leaving that last hour of work for another day or something else.

You sound a lot like me, Type A, wants everything to be done well, likes a really clean house, etc. That's how us lawyers often are, and it can be hard. I would suggest that you prioritize your sleep and make sure you're getting enough of it and also just plan times for you to think about/accomplish certain tasks. That helps them from feeling like they're always hanging over your head. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks all. We both work in law. DH is working on many more complicated deals now which is why the hours are so bad.

I am at a different firm that is also pretty demanding. Neither of us really has the ability to but back our hours and while I could take somewhat of a step back with less pay,
I can’t find any firms that actually have that option. No one wants a lawyer who is only willing to work 40 hours per week. I have interviewed for in house jobs too in the past but nothing has been the right fit.

I really don’t want to outsource more related to my kids because I want to be with them, which is my top priority in the mornings and after work until they go to bed.

We need a good income because we have one in private elementary, eventually two, a nice house, nice cars, etc. we could certainly be a bit more frugal with cars and things, but not education.

Ask your children what THEY need. Do they want private school, nice house, nice cars, or do they want to know their parents? You sound materialistic and shallow. I hope your nanny shows the kids love and attention.

I think this is unfair. I'm sure OP loves her kids and shows them that. Having to work long hours doesn't make you a bad parent. Let's not mom shame here.

For the record, I'm dad shaming too. 2 parents who see their kid for 30 minutes a day are, in fact, bad parents.

+1