Advice Needed: parents who both work long hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP that’s a miserable life for you. I mean really wtf. To answer your question- yes, plenty of parents have 9-5ish legal jobs and don’t have to log on after the kids go to bed. Get a different job.

+1

[Anonymous]

OP sounds like she is living out the lyrics to that song "Cat's in the Cradle".

"...thanks for the ball, Dad, c'mon let's play/
Can you teach me to throw/eh- not today - I've got a lot to do/
That's ok...and as he walked away..."

I feel sad for your kids Op.

And I'm guessing you'll be back soon on dcum posting why your kids seem to have behavior problems or acting out....easy, no solid abd consistent undivided attention from you or dh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

That is BS - my sister makes $800K-$1 million a year and is still the primary parent for her kids. She makes breakfasts, makes lunches, has done school for her kids during the pandemic and puts them to bed every night. When she is traveling her husband can also do this (and does help a ton) but just because you make a lot of money doesn't mean you get to abdicate your job as a parent. My husband makes $500K a year and still helps every morning and every night with the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

So she doesn’t really have reasonable hours. She works a normal full time day AND then she logs on every night after kids are in bed. Apparently husband is also working at night. This is a recipe for misery and is not sustainable as kids work their way through elementary and the middle school. Yes, OP could get more help around the house but there are some things you can’t outsource like time to exercise, relax, have sex with your spouse or just connect. Plus as everyone with older kids keeps screaming this schedule will be impossible soon because kids stay up later, have after school activities even if you just do one sport, need more help with homework, stay up later and want to spend time with you etc. it doesn’t have to be mom but dad is pulling in $500k and OP likes her fancy digs so it has to be mom in this case. And mommy law jobs can be very challenging and exciting— working for a nonprofit, working for local, state, or federal government etc. it’s not bad to have a mommy law job. It just means you can actually be a mommy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Wife of the big law partner here: my husband does dinner and bedtime with the kids every night. I clean while he does bath and stories. From 5:30-7 he is 100% with the kids. It's definitely possible. Her husband needs to pitch in more.

that’s great but not the case for all partners (and what about all the years trying to make partner?) Especially if there are clients in different time zones. And sorry, it still sounds miserable that the only family time is 1.5 hrs every night while you clean then he gets back on the phone. Miserable life, prioritizing money over all else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

there are plenty of government jobs that are 9-5. OP can only make decisions for herself. Her DH is high earner who wants to spend his money and she’s not going to change him.

That’s bullshit. They’re his kids too.

Do you actually think Mr “My kids can only go to private school” is going to downshift? He’s not. OP needs to face it - she has a sucky job for parenting, with or without a more participatory DH. Even if she gets her DH to get off the phone for an odd hour every evening, that’s not going to change the material conditions of her life. Because her demands make no sense as a matter of physics - you can’t have two high-stress jobs, be unwilling to earn less than 750k, and also refuse to get an au pair, and expect to have any semblance of comfort at home.

Sorry but why blame DH for the kids in private school. OP could very well say no. I imagine she's the one who completed those private school apps. If she wanted kids in public, she could make it happen. If she wanted to hire more help, she could make it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

That is BS - my sister makes $800K-$1 million a year and is still the primary parent for her kids. She makes breakfasts, makes lunches, has done school for her kids during the pandemic and puts them to bed every night. When she is traveling her husband can also do this (and does help a ton) but just because you make a lot of money doesn't mean you get to abdicate your job as a parent. My husband makes $500K a year and still helps every morning and every night with the kids.

“helps”

look - the basic facts are that families and kids require quantity, not quality. parents who choose to work 60 hrs/week are choosing money over family (either gender). if you earn 500k/year working 40hrs/week, good for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

there are plenty of government jobs that are 9-5. OP can only make decisions for herself. Her DH is high earner who wants to spend his money and she’s not going to change him.

That’s bullshit. They’re his kids too.

Do you actually think Mr “My kids can only go to private school” is going to downshift? He’s not. OP needs to face it - she has a sucky job for parenting, with or without a more participatory DH. Even if she gets her DH to get off the phone for an odd hour every evening, that’s not going to change the material conditions of her life. Because her demands make no sense as a matter of physics - you can’t have two high-stress jobs, be unwilling to earn less than 750k, and also refuse to get an au pair, and expect to have any semblance of comfort at home.

Sorry but why blame DH for the kids in private school. OP could very well say no. I imagine she's the one who completed those private school apps. If she wanted kids in public, she could make it happen. If she wanted to hire more help, she could make it happen.

PP here. Yes, I agree but she doesn’t seem likely to force it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

“never mind the country club fees”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is OP again. I want to clear up the notion that I only spend 30 mins per day with my kids which is not at all true. They are up by 7am latest and we spend an hour an a half together until I drop the older one at school at 8:30 and our nanny arrives. I stop working at 5:30pm so I think have another 2 hours with my youngest who goes to bed at 7:30pm, and my oldest who goes to bed at 8 gets 2.5 hours. Where I struggle is that I then need to handle everything else too - cooking, clean up, laundry, schedules, projects, etc. And I choose to stop working at 5:30 and then go back online later most nights so I can spend the time with my kids.

I am genuinely curious - are there moms who work full time and get to spend more time with their kids than this? Even if you work 9-5 with commuting it’s probably about the same I would imagine.

We also don’t work for what would be considered biglaw firms (although my firm is bigger than DH’s). DH is already a partner and makes around $500K per year all in. He has even more earning potential with his recent promotion but isn’t there yet. I make around $250K and made it clear I don’t want to be on partner track because those attorneys work much more than I do.

We also don’t live an overly extravagant lifestyle at all. DH went to private school and is not open to public regardless of how good it is. That’s the only think that would make a reasonable different in our expenditures. So when you add that up, plus FT nanny, summer camp and classes, our families both lives across the country so 2X per year flights, one vacation per year, etc... it really doesn’t go as far as it should. We also save quite a bit as we want to make sure college and possible grad school are covered for our kids.

OP you are effing ridiculous. You make $750k/year and “it doesn’t go as far as it should”?! Wtf. You are LOADED and completely out of touch. I can’t even.

It sounds like you don't live a life similar to OP's. That's ok, but you don't have to act like it's completely unreasonable that OP's expenses are what they are. $750K/year is about $375K/year take home. Being in that tax bracket means you get hit with the highest rates and don't have the benefits of the truly rich (i.e. people living off interest or dividends), since it's all salary.

Nanny is probably $75K given that she's working 45 hours per week, which means 5 hours of overtime, which is 1.5 times normal rates. $25/hour times 40 hours/week is $52K. $37.50/hour (overtime) times 5 hours/week is $9,750, which is $61,750. Then you have to add in the employer's share of Medicare and SS on to that, plus bonus, gifts, etc.

Private school tuition for two is $125K, which would be $55K per kid plus donations, teacher's gifts, etc.

Mortgage is probably at least $75K a year.

So now we're at $275K/year on $375K take home salary. It's not a stretch to assume that 401k contributions plus 529 contributions take up another maybe $75K, plus two car payments totaling $20K a year, and you've practically eaten up the salary. Never mind clothes, country club memberships, sports, vacations, etc.

I'm not saying that's the way anyone should want to live, or even that it makes good financial sense, but it's not completely ludicrous to imagine the lifestyle OP is leading.

“never mind the country club fees”

I mean, you can roll your eyes all you want. I didn't say any of those expenses were necessary, I was just saying it's not that hard to imagine where OP's money is going. I get that you may not have a country club membership, and that's fine, but there are LOTS of people who do, and guess what? They cost money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it sounds to me that at this point in time, your kids are getting as much of your time as parents who work more of a 9-5 schedule are able to give their kids. The problem is that as your kids get older, they will go to bed later, and it is going to be really hard to get in an extra 3 hours of work after they go to bed. Then add in all of the activities that your kids will likely end up doing and things will get even more hectic.

Are you happy? It sounds like you get no down time at all. I would keep looking for job opportunities with the federal government. As a PP noted, these years go by so fast. At the end of the day, I don't think you would look back and regret finding a less stressful job. Good luck. I know it's really hard finding the right balance.

Her hours won’t be that much better with the government. And the pay will be lower. And she might have less flexibility in her hours. It is driving me crazy that everyone is focusing on OP working less when her husband barely sees his children during the week and she sees them several hours a day!

I'm the PP you are quoting. I agree that the husband should be helping more, especially if OP really likes her job and doesn't want to work less. I'm a fed and my hours are much less than they would be in private practice. I almost never work past 5:00 or on weekends. I know that can vary quite a bit and isn't a given. My advice was premised (perhaps incorrectly) on OP being much happier in a less demanding job. In my family, I am happy to have the mommy track job, but you are right that I shouldn't have assumed OP feels the same. Sorry OP.

[Anonymous]

DH and I are doctors and had our first two children when we were both in training and working 60-80 hours/wk with an HHI of about $90k/yr, half of which went to taxes and childcare. Our schedules were a little easier than yours because we didn’t have a five day work week, and there was a defined end to it. There was no logging in from home.

Anyway, here is what I remember making it easier:
1). We ate a meal at the playground nearly every day that we could. Typically, this was dinner. I would pack up something before I left for work, or I would get takeout, and we would just go to the playground after work and eat at a picnic table. That way there was minimal prep and clean-up.
2). I did a lot of housework in the mornings because DH left for work a couple of hours before I did. That way I wasn’t trying to do it while I was caring for kids. I put everyone’s laundry in the wash at night, then put it in the dryer when I woke up. While it was drying, I did any dishes, prepped lunches for daycare, and prepped dinner. Then I folded laundry and put it away as I was getting kids up for the day.
3). Sometimes time spent together was just kids laying in the bed with us watching TV while we slept.

Now, we have incomes closer to yours, and we have a housekeeper 4 days a week who does most of the cooking/cleaning/laundry/grocery shopping. I cook two days/wk, and we get takeout once a week. (Although as kids get older, they are taking on some of it as well).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so irritated that everyone keeps blaming op for her job. She has reasonable hours and good salary for Law. She doesn’t need to mommy track anymore than she already has.

The problem is that her husband is working crazy hours. He needs to take more of a break in the evenings and help out more. OP is not the problem. And they need tips for how to outsource more. That’s really what Op was asking. She does not need to mommy track more.

no, it is her job because she’s the one complaining. her husband, correctly, thinks that since they earn 750k HHI he doesn’t need to come home for dinner. Someone else will handle it. That person can be OP or it can be a housekeeper or au pair. Very, very few people earning 500k are going to drop everything to do dishes and bedtime from 6-9 every night. Her choice. Leaving aside her DH, I think any job that makes you regularly work several hours after your young kids’ bedtime is unsustainable.

Wife of the big law partner here: my husband does dinner and bedtime with the kids every night. I clean while he does bath and stories. From 5:30-7 he is 100% with the kids. It's definitely possible. Her husband needs to pitch in more.

that’s great but not the case for all partners (and what about all the years trying to make partner?) Especially if there are clients in different time zones. And sorry, it still sounds miserable that the only family time is 1.5 hrs every night while you clean then he gets back on the phone. Miserable life, prioritizing money over all else.

Actually that is the case for all partners because the point of becoming partner is having more control over your schedule.
And if a parent works 9-5, has a 30 minute commute and kids go to bed at 7 how is that parent spending more time with their kids that this parent? The difference is working after bedtime. Very few people have the mental fortitude to do that (sounds like you included) which is why so few people make partner.

[Anonymous]

Literally no one with a household income of 750k should be coming to a message board and expecting empathy around work/life issues. No one. I'm sorry, but OP and her DH could be Barack and Michelle Obama and I would be like "STFU and figure it out -- you made your bed."

These are not real problems. "We can only send our kids to private school" is a fake problem, for instance. Hell, why did OP have multiple kids?! They could have had one or even two kids and then it would be possible to live in a more modest house and still afford private school and college savings AND have one or both of them take a slightly less insanely time consuming job. People criticize poor people all the time for having kids they "can't afford" but OP and her husband had kids they don't think they can afford on 750k. That's idiotic.

I refuse to sympathize for someone who could solve 100% of her problems tomorrow by simply compromising on one or two things. These people don't want to compromise on anything. They want the massive incomes, the big house, private school, the mess of kids, the vacations, the big titles, etc. And now she wants to complain it's too hard? Nope. Nope. Nope. You made your made.