Advice Needed: parents who both work long hours

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.

Hence the use of the word “traditional “… 🙄🙄🙄

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.

Hence the use of the word “traditional “… 🙄🙄🙄

So if it's no longer considered women's work, what's your problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that "fun parts of parenting" PP is a troll anyway, but if not I feel bad for her. Parenting is in the small moments, when you're doing something mundane and then suddenly your 4yo turns to you with joy or a comment that cracks you up.

If you get a lot of fulfilment from your job, that's great. But don't deluxe yourself about the tradeoffs. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

Ok, what time do you get home from work? Did you miss the part a about spending 4 hours a day on weekdays and all weekend with the kids? Do you think moms who work full time are bad parents for missing out on every single small moment?

Let’s not turn this into a working moms vs SAHM debate. The fact is, lots and lots of moms choose to work even when they don’t have to. I know, my mom worked full time and I never felt like I needed her more. We were very close and still are, and I respect her so much. I want my kids to have that. I don’t think spending an extra hour a day doing the dishes myself is going to meaningfully affect their lives or make them feel more loved. Having a mother who is happy, fulfilled, and able to spend real time with them makes a huge difference. I know my personality and I know doing ALL of the grunt work (vs just some of it and getting help for the rest) would make me and all of us unhappy.

I’m not sure what you people do for a living, but this situation is de rigueur in highly educated professional fields. My husband and I both worked in biglaw - he became a partner, I peeled off and took a more interesting but lower pay and lower hours job. This is par for the course in that world. Husband earns the money, wife has the “hobby job” (and sometimes the roles are reversed). For every partner who is married to a SAHM there seems to be a partner married to another partner (now that arrangement I will never wrap my head around). I truly feel like I have it all, though it does make me sad sometimes that my husband works so much. If I had a meaningless job that I didn’t like I’d imagine feeling differently.

I’m not trying to brag or tell you how I did everything right in life. I’m just saying it is entirely possible for two parents to work significant hours and still have a happy, healthy family life. I know many people aren’t as fortunate and I feel like people like PP are bitter with their lot and enjoy feeling like martyrs. The thing is, you don’t have to spend your morning making your kids individual bento boxes for lunch (my kids buy lunch at school). You don’t have to work part time so that you can take your kids to Kumon or their chess lessons (my kids come home and play with each other or neighborhood friends). Yes, those are trade offs, but my kids really don’t care whether I send them little notes in their lunch box everyday. Frankly I think they’d be embarrassed. But then again, I’m not a helicopter parent and it’s really important to me that my kids don’t feel like special snowflakes.

Thanks for this lecture, especially what's " de rigeur in highly edicated fields" lol. I'm former biglaw and still work full-time as an attorney.

No one is telling OP to wash her own dishes.

There is limited time in everyone's day and it's a choice about how to spend them. Outsourcing helps to a certain point to take tasks off your list, but after that you lose time with your kids and that's fine if it's what you want.

I’m the first PP who commented that outsourcing PP pregnant with her fourth can’t be real, but not one of the recent posters.

For someone who claims to have it all figured out (the dream career! the fourth child!), you sure write an awful lot here. What I can’t reconcile is having such a strong preference for only the “fun” parts of parenting and then going on to have a *fourth* kid. It’s hard to relate to wanting to outsource THAT much of parenting (because when you have four kids, or even three, like I do), there’s a ton of not fun parts. I’m not a martyr, but I do value my ability to hang in there with my kids when things are tough and to find meaning in the little stuff you won’t do. A lot goes unsaid, but it’s there if you take the time to look, which you’re pretty clear you have no interest in doing.

What part about “help” do you not understand? With four kids, of course there are hard parts even when you have a sitter and housekeeper. But the more help you get for those things where it doesn’t really matter who does it, the more you can spend quality time with them. So on the weekends, I show them how to make their bed and make sure they put their clothes in the laundry. But on weekdays, the sitter mostly handles stuff like that. When I’m helping my third grader with his homework, she’s playing legos with the first grader. When I’m cooking dinner my older kids want to play outside on the swing set and she’ll keep an eye on them while my preschooler “helps” me make dinner. How do you think people have raised families since the beginning of human existence? Do you think it’s required for a mother to be hovering over only one child at every given second? Do you value independence in your children and their ability to relate well to their siblings and other adults?

To the first question: no, of course not. Why would you assume that I do? I have three kids and work FT, so I'm almost never hovering over any one of them.

And to the second question: yes, absolutely. My nine year old regularly makes breakfast for herself and her siblings, does her laundry, cleans her room, etc. The younger two (seven and five) are getting there with those kinds of things. They do well playing in their various combinations and solo. They're all confident, outgoing kids and I completely credit the fantastic daycare we sent them to for that, thanks to their warm, loving caregivers, strong SEL curriculum, and and emphasis on peer relationships.

It sounds like you do actually want another adult with your kids at all times, so you hire a babysitter to do that. And that's fine, of course, but then don't lecture me or anyone else about hovering and about how independent your kids are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.

Hence the use of the word “traditional “… 🙄🙄🙄

So if it's no longer considered women's work, what's your problem?

It IS still women’s work… you just hire OTHER WOMEN to do it instead of you. This is really not that hard to understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks all. We both work in law. DH is working on many more complicated deals now which is why the hours are so bad.

I am at a different firm that is also pretty demanding. Neither of us really has the ability to but back our hours and while I could take somewhat of a step back with less pay,
I can’t find any firms that actually have that option. No one wants a lawyer who is only willing to work 40 hours per week. I have interviewed for in house jobs too in the past but nothing has been the right fit.

I really don’t want to outsource more related to my kids because I want to be with them, which is my top priority in the mornings and after work until they go to bed.

We need a good income because we have one in private elementary, eventually two, a nice house, nice cars, etc. we could certainly be a bit more frugal with cars and things, but not education.

[/quotte]

Having to work long hours is one thing. Choosing is different. They choose to live in a big house, drive luxury cars, and send the kids to private school, and to keep up with that, they work contstantly. They’re choosing the trappings of luxury over an actual lifestyle that would allow for enjoyment and spending time together.
Ask your children what THEY need. Do they want private school, nice house, nice cars, or do they want to know their parents? You sound materialistic and shallow. I hope your nanny shows the kids love and attention.

I think this is unfair. I'm sure OP loves her kids and shows them that. Having to work long hours doesn't make you a bad parent. Let's not mom shame here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.

Hence the use of the word “traditional “… 🙄🙄🙄

So if it's no longer considered women's work, what's your problem?

It IS still women’s work… you just hire OTHER WOMEN to do it instead of you. This is really not that hard to understand.

Our nanny is male. And in any event you missed the whole point of the post. But feel free to keep yelling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

NP. I think people are way overreacting to this poster. The things she mentions she doesn't want to do include cleaning up spills in the kitchen and packing lunches. Do you really think it's a requirement of great parenting to be the one who does that mundane crap? Do you think kids even notice who does those things? Wiping noses and doing homework are a little different, because they're hands on, but anyone who says that it's bad parenting to not want to do your kids' laundry, for example, is being ridiculous.

I will preface this by saying that I genuinely don’t care how other people raise their kids, but I actually think this attitude is part of our societal tendency to degrade women and traditional women’s work (and yes I was a WOHM). I actually get not wanting to do it, but the condescending dismissiveness is offensive, especially since you are almost certainly paying other women to do it for you (and your spouse, obviously).

I mean outsource if you want, but maybe try to show a little respect? Clearly if you are willing to pay someone to do those tasks you understand that they are tasks worth doing, even if you’re too good for that kind of thing yourself…

Ok, you're really reading into that post, but if you notice, what was mentioned was parenting. By parents. It didn't say moms. So if in your household it's the mom that does all that stuff, then maybe you're the problem. In my household, there's no distinction between mom or dad when it comes to that stuff. Our kids were formula-fed because after a double mastectomy there was no choice, so other than actually carrying them, there wasn't anything I did that my husband didn't also do, and the same is true today. The point in that post had nothing to do with women doing the work. Nothing at all. The point is that parenting doesn't have to include all the little things your kids never see. The people who want to act like it does are martyrs and should at least own that that's what they're being.

Hence the use of the word “traditional “… 🙄🙄🙄

So if it's no longer considered women's work, what's your problem?

It IS still women’s work… you just hire OTHER WOMEN to do it instead of you. This is really not that hard to understand.

Our nanny is male. And in any event you missed the whole point of the post. But feel free to keep yelling.

Haha, of course he is. As we all know, the vast majority of child care workers are male. It’s almost a cliche at this point! And I bet you have a team of out of work burly oilmen to scrub your toilets and do your laundry, too. But congratulations on solving gender inequality! I’m sure that whatever happens in your household is indicative of society at large! Maybe you can hire someone to pull your head out of your ass 🤣🤣🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of the cleaning lady and hire a housekeeper.

It sounds like OP needs a 20–30 hour a week housekeeper. Someone who comes every morning or afternoon and handles groceries, meals, cleaning, random errands, laundry, etc. Yes, this is expensive, but that’s the only thing that will make your days bearable. Look into the cost and decide if you feel it’s worth it to spend at least half your raise on outsourcing.

I posted above about us being double biglaw and I certainly don’t need 20-30 hours of a housekeeper. That’s wild. We have laundry delivery/pickup and twice-weekly cleaners, Whole Foods grocery delivery, and an au pair. I don’t even know what I would use that many hours of housekeeper time for.

This

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are getting a lot of weird advice.

First important point: Do you love your job and is your work meaningful?

Your children are 2 and 6. So next year or the year after they'll both be in the same private school on the same schedule. Right?

Op, you can do it. You need to manage a real housekeeper (2-3x a week doing laundry, cleaning errands, meals) and a nanny before and after school or a live in. Once the kids are both in elementary school your live in Au pair or nanny also needs to be able to manage homework time, drive to sports, manage the kids.

I downshifted jobs until my youngest was in first grade. Then I took a c level job like my husband already had (he was clueless about the house and his own kids, very unappreciative of me running everything as well). It’s more rewarding and I know what’s up with my kids. I have direct lines of communication with the childcarer, coaches, teachers, friends, carpools, and my kids. I will also likely divorce my husband as he’s not managing his disorders at all.

If you have an on the ball spouse who cares and is thankful for anything you do you are already ahead of me and any single mom with a job. Regardless of job. Lots of men and women work demanding jobs and don’t neglect their kids. And lots of who work a lot or a little neglect their kids. All income strata.

[Anonymous]

Let’s face it. If you quit your $200-500k/yr job you’ll work a full day for less pay and the do the BS “second shift” at home all night.

Think like a man. Go for it.

Think like a New Yorker. Go for it.

Think like a top litigator, top investor, top scientist, top movie star. Go for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pp here. I just wanted to add that I used to work full time and I felt like I did not have enough time with my kids. The morning rush to get ready was not qualify fine spent and after work we had 1-2 hours. This wasn’t enough time. For some people, that 1 hour of time may be enough.

I also didn’t like how I was not taking care of myself. I was too tired to work out.

DH does not feel the same. He doesn’t feel guilty for not being a chaperone for a field trip or missing a class party. I wonder if the moms (or dads) know how sad their kids look when they are one of the few without a parent at their party or show. It is even sadder if the kid is so used to parent not coming that they don’t even feel bothered by it.

You must have a never ending series of kindergarteners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp here. I just wanted to add that I used to work full time and I felt like I did not have enough time with my kids. The morning rush to get ready was not qualify fine spent and after work we had 1-2 hours. This wasn’t enough time. For some people, that 1 hour of time may be enough.

I also didn’t like how I was not taking care of myself. I was too tired to work out.

DH does not feel the same. He doesn’t feel guilty for not being a chaperone for a field trip or missing a class party. I wonder if the moms (or dads) know how sad their kids look when they are one of the few without a parent at their party or show. It is even sadder if the kid is so used to parent not coming that they don’t even feel bothered by it.

Oh come off it. I am a social worker turned SAHM, and I find this ridiculous. My kids, like most of the kids on DCUM, are already over privileged with a little too much oversight into their day to day lives.

If you want to help sad children, then put on an ice cream social at the DV shelter. There are tons of sad kids there. Don’t hop on message boards to troll working mothers.

In DC we noticed that the helicopter SAHM or PT working moms all hail in the public schools and MoCo private schools.
The DC private and public schools have considerably more dual income working parents who have demanding jobs or considerable travel and make things work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp here. I just wanted to add that I used to work full time and I felt like I did not have enough time with my kids. The morning rush to get ready was not qualify fine spent and after work we had 1-2 hours. This wasn’t enough time. For some people, that 1 hour of time may be enough.

I also didn’t like how I was not taking care of myself. I was too tired to work out.

DH does not feel the same. He doesn’t feel guilty for not being a chaperone for a field trip or missing a class party. I wonder if the moms (or dads) know how sad their kids look when they are one of the few without a parent at their party or show. It is even sadder if the kid is so used to parent not coming that they don’t even feel bothered by it.

Oh come off it. I am a social worker turned SAHM, and I find this ridiculous. My kids, like most of the kids on DCUM, are already over privileged with a little too much oversight into their day to day lives.

If you want to help sad children, then put on an ice cream social at the DV shelter. There are tons of sad kids there. Don’t hop on message boards to troll working mothers.

In DC we noticed that the helicopter SAHM or PT working moms all hail in the public schools and MoCo private schools.
The DC private and public schools have considerably more dual income working parents who have demanding jobs or considerable travel and make things work.

NP It’s these SAHMs who come up with ridiculous school events requiring parental attendance, to justify their lazy useless lives. I’m lucky to have a short commute and flexible schedule to attend most of them, but most of them are not that important and it’s not right to make working parents with inflexible schedules feel bad. When I was in school in the 90s and 00s, my parents were invited to school maybe once or twice a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of the cleaning lady and hire a housekeeper.

It sounds like OP needs a 20–30 hour a week housekeeper. Someone who comes every morning or afternoon and handles groceries, meals, cleaning, random errands, laundry, etc. Yes, this is expensive, but that’s the only thing that will make your days bearable. Look into the cost and decide if you feel it’s worth it to spend at least half your raise on outsourcing.

I posted above about us being double biglaw and I certainly don’t need 20-30 hours of a housekeeper. That’s wild. We have laundry delivery/pickup and twice-weekly cleaners, Whole Foods grocery delivery, and an au pair. I don’t even know what I would use that many hours of housekeeper time for.

This

DP, but if you add up all the things you get delivery for, plus your twice weekly cleanings, that's easily 20-30 hours/week. It's a different model: hiring one person who cleans, gets groceries, and does laundry, which combined would take the same length of time you apparently can't conceive of it taking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of the cleaning lady and hire a housekeeper.

It sounds like OP needs a 20–30 hour a week housekeeper. Someone who comes every morning or afternoon and handles groceries, meals, cleaning, random errands, laundry, etc. Yes, this is expensive, but that’s the only thing that will make your days bearable. Look into the cost and decide if you feel it’s worth it to spend at least half your raise on outsourcing.

I posted above about us being double biglaw and I certainly don’t need 20-30 hours of a housekeeper. That’s wild. We have laundry delivery/pickup and twice-weekly cleaners, Whole Foods grocery delivery, and an au pair. I don’t even know what I would use that many hours of housekeeper time for.

This

DP, but if you add up all the things you get delivery for, plus your twice weekly cleanings, that's easily 20-30 hours/week. It's a different model: hiring one person who cleans, gets groceries, and does laundry, which combined would take the same length of time you apparently can't conceive of it taking.

I will also bet that PP can’t conceive of what a SAHM of school age children possibly does all day… 🙄. I guess if you don’t see the work being done (actually washing the clothes you send out, or doing the shopping at the grocery store) then it only takes as long as the walk from the delivery vehicle to your front door.