When the Other Woman meets your kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So letting kids draw their own conclusions about their father is abusive but telling them an abusive man ISNT abusive is healthy?

Nah.

No, you don't characterize his behavior towards YOU. If he behaves badly to the kids, yes you have to step in to sort that out. But the fact that he was banging someone while you were married and that destroyed their family? Nope.

Kids need to believe their dad loves them and they can't do that very well if they know their dad thought so little of them as to cheat and leave. We divorced moms need to help kids feel loved by their dads, not pile on with how horrible his rejection of us is.

When the kid is an adult with a family of my own, trust me, he'll figure out that what dad did sucked royally. He'll also understand how difficult it is to be married and have kids, which helps explain dad's behavior. Not justify or excuse, but explain.

OMG, you think these people just bang people and come home and act like the greatest person on earth.

No. They are angry, passive aggressive, rude, judgemental, etc... and the kids have to deal with it. The finding out about the affair is like a balloon being popped from too much air... at first it is jarring but once the toxic person is removed from the home... the kids do better.

Kid don't need to BELIEVE their dad loves them... they need a dad that loves them. LOVE is a VERB, not a feeling. When you rob your kids of time, money and energy... that is not love. Kids need to know that. If you act like that behavior is normal they will marry somebody who is toxic like their dad.

His rejection is not of the wife... they reject their kids stability. Do you know how easy it is to just move out and say, this is not working. Nobody is asking somebody to stay in an unhappy situation, but cheating is a toxic response to stress,.... just like alcohol abuse or drug use.

Waiting until they are 22 and looking back... no.. too late. Talk about the elephant in the room, get therapy, learn how to deal with selfish, toxic people now. Kids will be soooo much better off learning to deal with their dad now.

This is what I explain to my kids... life is stressful. You relieve stress with sleep, meditation, good food, working out, spending time with friends and the love and support of your family. You turn in... when you turn out, you are going to self destruct. You don't blame others, drink, do drugs and f random women to relieve stress.

You are making excuses and it's sad.

I think this was well stated. It's absolutely vital to tell the kids the truth because they will ask why they are divorcing. Why is dad living with Suzie? Why do I have to share my dad and toys with Suzie's kids? Etc. Etc.

One can be honest, but not giving out marriage details or as someone suggested not using your child as a therapist. That's totally wrong. So is bad mouthing the other parent - the kids will form their own opinions.

If he ends up with the AP I don't see a reason OP would have to talk to her. Only talk to the ex about the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I "poisoned" my kids against their dad and the lying scuzzy other woman. I told them exactly what they did. Kids were appalled and stopped speaking to him. They were high schoolers so I just said so sorry dad missed your game, he was too busy screwing his girlfriend.
Despite all the protestations on the DCUM, it worked great. All our friends took my side.

Ex gave up and just sends the checks now. We are all happier. I hear that marriage is on the ricks now, too!

My mom pretty much did this - poisoned us against our dad, denied him access, eventually he gave up. So she "won". Yay. I can see, with the benefit of adult perspective, that this inflicted severe, long-lasting psychological damage on me and my brother. I have never told her this, and she'd no doubt emit a huge cloud of annoying self-justification if I did. So please, don't do this to your kids, however much it feels like "winning" to you in the short term.

Why shouldn't you take your mom's side? What is wrong with you?

What is WRONG is EXACTLY what you are saying here - demanding that kids "take a side". The other parent is STILL their parent, and will be for the kid's entire life, even if that parent is not a perfect person and even if you hate them.

Act in the interest OF YOUR CHILDREN not of your wounded pride and ego.

It's healthier for kids to know the truth about their parents and separate themselves from narcissism. This BS about respect a person just because they share DNA is not healthy. Act like a good person if you want respect. Sometime kids need to learn healthy boundaries, like staying away from toxic people.

Yes but marriage is complicated and sometimes a bad husband is not a bad father. My mother did this. My father and her had a horrible relationship and he cheating all through the marriage. He left her for another woman and she told us not to speak to him. We didn’t for many years. We made up with him on and off and when we were on, we had issues but he was always there for us. Our mother put us in awful situations - she wouldn’t even speak to him which I understand but we did not deserve to be in the middle. Now we have made up with our father because we have kids of our own. I can tell you unwaveringly if this happened in my life I would never poison my kids because of what my mom did. Unless my husband is a danger to my children, they would see him and have a relationship with him.

You actually don't know what your mom saved your from back when you were a child because you had no relationship. Men mellow with age and it's good he eventually mellowed. Maybe it's because your mom didn't put up with his sh*t and realized he needed to chill if he wanted a relationship with you. Maybe your relationship with him is because of your mom, not despite.

No my mother didn’t save me from his shit. She used us as a weapon to punish him. I don’t think my mother is evil. I know what happened to her was awful. But she needed to get help and get therapy. Not use us to get back at him. Even to this day she obsesses about him.

Is that what your therapist thinks?

Infidelity is a major traumatic betrayal that often causes PTSD. This has only been recognized in the last 10-15 years. I doubt your Mom had any support in the culture or from therapists when this happened to her. In fact, many people, therapists included, probably just blamed her for the infidelity. What looks like "obsessing" to you can actually be "hypervigilance", which is actually a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Add to that that repeated contact with the perpetrator (your Dad) probably just repeated and extended the trauma over the years.

Perhaps you could have a little more understanding for your Mom? Your notion that she "needed to get help and get therapy" is right, but realize at that time, there probably was no effective help and therapy. I dealt with major repeated infidelity about 15 years ago, and even then there was no effective help available. As a mother, I have to say, looking back, that what our culture actually asks of us, is to continue to expose ourselves to abusive partners while remaining silent about that abuse. It's not easy, nor should it be required - not even for our children. I agree with the other PP, that you really don't know what your Mom protected you from.

BTW, you recognize that a guy who cheats extensively so as to break the marriage is not someone who "was always there for us", right?

Not the poster you responded to but it is so ridiculous that you and others are continually telling these posters that they should view their experiences differently. Who are you to know more than the person who actually lived if? Or to imply that PP didn’t do enough? You are viewing this through your own lens and projecting, heavily. It’s disgusting for you to tell the PP how she is supposed to feel.

[Anonymous]

Child of divorced parents where infidelity was involved and dad is still with his AP 20+ years later.

OP, take the high road, trust me on this. Yes, kids will figure out what happened but you won't have control over the outcome of their feelings. As others noted, they may come to accept and even like their dad's new girlfriend. Or hate who you end up dating.

Otherwise, this board contains a lot of very angry advice that you should ignore. Clearly, there isn't a once-size-fits-all model. Some people were married to alcoholics, dead-beats and chronic cheaters and physical abusers. That wasn't my dad, who despite his flaws remained involved, loving and accommodating.

Revenge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person gets sick. The best way forward is to live your best life. People, including kids, are attracted to and want to spend time with happy, stable people.

[Anonymous]

Some of you are totally unrealistic. The kids ALWAYS find out. Older siblings will tell the younger one, or they hear it from a relative if not the other parent. If dad moves out, and in a home with the OW they get it right away. Or all of a sudden one of the other parents is introducing them to a new gf.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equating cheating with hitting a child is completely wrong. I'm married and my husband is not a cheater, so I don't have a personal dog in this fight. But, it does a real disservice to children who have been actually abused to equate the two. There is a reason that cheating does not lead to loss of custody or removal from the home.

Nobody is equating cheating to hitting a child.



Just like nobody equates sexual abuse to hitting a child.... though they are both abuse.

We all know how the courts wrongly give kids to their fathers for visitation to only have them beaten to death or drowned so ... I'm not sure your example is a great one.

Josh Powell killed his wife... but they could not prove it... court gave him visitation for his kids and he blew them up. Still, the mom's murder is unsolved. Come on now.

My point is that physical and mental/emotional abuse is treated differently by the courts than cheating, because cheating is not abuse. Yes, there are tragic times when real abuse can't be proven, but that is a different issue. This person (don't know if it's you or not) IS equating cheating with physical abuse:

it's a form of abuse.... if you don't know that it's sad you learned so little after going through it. So is alcoholism, so is drug abuse, so is holding money over a kids head in return for a relationship.. so is hitting, there are all different types of abuse, cheating is one of them.

Alcoholism is abuse but children are not taken from drunk parents... so your example is not a good example. It's abuse.

[Anonymous]

I think this was well stated. It's absolutely vital to tell the kids the truth because they will ask why they are divorcing. Why is dad living with Suzie? Why do I have to share my dad and toys with Suzie's kids? Etc. Etc.

One can be honest, but not giving out marriage details or as someone suggested not using your child as a therapist. That's totally wrong. So is bad mouthing the other parent - the kids will form their own opinions.

If he ends up with the AP I don't see a reason OP would have to talk to her. Only talk to the ex about the kids.

For the last time: Because your kid is not your therapist. Because this is how most conversations would go:

Mom: dad is living with Suzie because he slept with her and I kicked him out
Dad: I slept with Suzie because mom cut-off all physical affection
Mom: I cut off affection because dad didn't meet my emotional needs
Dad: I was busy working because mom decided to downscale at work and ran up some unnecessary spending

You get the point. Seriously, there are always two sides to this. Your kid isn't the ref. Grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I never told the kids the reason for the divorce. They were in HS and I did not to badmouth their dad.

Take the high road.

They know they just never talked to you about it. So you advise OP to have a closed relationship with their children. It's seriously sad that children can't talk to their parents and have to hold it all in to save their mom's emotions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So letting kids draw their own conclusions about their father is abusive but telling them an abusive man ISNT abusive is healthy?

Nah.

No, you don't characterize his behavior towards YOU. If he behaves badly to the kids, yes you have to step in to sort that out. But the fact that he was banging someone while you were married and that destroyed their family? Nope.

Kids need to believe their dad loves them and they can't do that very well if they know their dad thought so little of them as to cheat and leave. We divorced moms need to help kids feel loved by their dads, not pile on with how horrible his rejection of us is.

When the kid is an adult with a family of my own, trust me, he'll figure out that what dad did sucked royally. He'll also understand how difficult it is to be married and have kids, which helps explain dad's behavior. Not justify or excuse, but explain.

OMG, you think these people just bang people and come home and act like the greatest person on earth.

No. They are angry, passive aggressive, rude, judgemental, etc... and the kids have to deal with it. The finding out about the affair is like a balloon being popped from too much air... at first it is jarring but once the toxic person is removed from the home... the kids do better.

Kid don't need to BELIEVE their dad loves them... they need a dad that loves them. LOVE is a VERB, not a feeling. When you rob your kids of time, money and energy... that is not love. Kids need to know that. If you act like that behavior is normal they will marry somebody who is toxic like their dad.

His rejection is not of the wife... they reject their kids stability. Do you know how easy it is to just move out and say, this is not working. Nobody is asking somebody to stay in an unhappy situation, but cheating is a toxic response to stress,.... just like alcohol abuse or drug use.

Waiting until they are 22 and looking back... no.. too late. Talk about the elephant in the room, get therapy, learn how to deal with selfish, toxic people now. Kids will be soooo much better off learning to deal with their dad now.

This is what I explain to my kids... life is stressful. You relieve stress with sleep, meditation, good food, working out, spending time with friends and the love and support of your family. You turn in... when you turn out, you are going to self destruct. You don't blame others, drink, do drugs and f random women to relieve stress.

You are making excuses and it's sad.

But let’s say dad had decided to be more upstanding and productive in his actions and leave the marriage before he cheated. The end result is still the same. The blow to the kids’ stability is still largely the same. That’s why I don’t understand what telling the kids or being bitter accomplishes, other than trying to “win.” You’re still divorced at the end of the day. Yes, the extra drama and anguish should have been avoided, absolutely. But ultimately one partner didn’t want to be in the marriage, however they chose to express that, and that is what it is.

No it's not the same. study after study after study will show you.. it's very, very different.

A marriage that seeks therapy and ends amicably has a way different outcome that one that just up and blows up the bridge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are totally unrealistic. The kids ALWAYS find out. Older siblings will tell the younger one, or they hear it from a relative if not the other parent. If dad moves out, and in a home with the OW they get it right away. Or all of a sudden one of the other parents is introducing them to a new gf.

So what? I found out my dad cheated. I honestly had no immediate reaction, I was a teenager and obsessed with myself. You want to believe that when the kids find out why the marriage ended, everyone will rally around the betrayed spouse, cast off the cheater on an iceberg and burn all photos of him/her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wish I were a troll. Stop being a jerk, though. I've moved on in that I dont want my ex back... the divorce was not a mistake and I am a million times happier without him. But it doesn't mean I want my kids meeting this woman, or that I want to ever have to look at her face.

Why not? It sounds like maybe she did you a favor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are totally unrealistic. The kids ALWAYS find out. Older siblings will tell the younger one, or they hear it from a relative if not the other parent. If dad moves out, and in a home with the OW they get it right away. Or all of a sudden one of the other parents is introducing them to a new gf.

So what? I found out my dad cheated. I honestly had no immediate reaction, I was a teenager and obsessed with myself. You want to believe that when the kids find out why the marriage ended, everyone will rally around the betrayed spouse, cast off the cheater on an iceberg and burn all photos of him/her.

No where did I say that??? The kids will observe and form their own opinions, no need to ever bash him.

Just be honest with your kids if they ask questions during the process. Then move on without resorting to revenge. I think that's what most are agreeing with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's like when a father (or mother) is an alcoholic. You don't pretend they are not drunk. You have to be honest with your kids. If their father/mother is doing something that is destructive to the whole family unit... bring it to light and deal with it. Nothing is good that is kept in the dark, it just is toxic to the children's emotional well being.

Get them therapy so they can say they hate their dad to a therapist instead of you... they will try to protect you and say it's okay or even say it sucks when it doesn't.

Let them have a safe person to talk to.

It's clear in this post how damaged some of the kids of divorce, now adults have become people pleasers ... like they have to or something... like ... I have kids and they "must" know their grandfather... why? It's sad.

My exDH cheated extensively. He had a chance to stop and make amends. I gave him about 2 years in therapy and in the marriage. He was unable to stop. I asked him to leave.

I have never discussed the reason why their Dad and I split up, and I always encouraged his visitation and for the kids to have a good relationship with him. 10 years down the road, I can see that that approach has actually done a lot of damage. It's sort of like hiding a person's alcoholism. Cheating is a reflection of a lot of personal flaws (in our case -- mental illness, substance abuse, family history of substance abuse and mental illness causing poor parenting, etc.). When you cover up these issues, it just causes more problems down the road. Personally, now looking back, I think it would have been better to let the kids know about the causes of the break up, including the infidelity. I could have done so calmly but while still allowing visitation and with more explicit healthy boundaries.

Even though I took the high road, it's clear that the kids are struggling but they don't know exactly why because no one has discussed the issues with them. Now that they are in HS, I am starting to discuss more about substance abuse, family history, etc. But, frankly, it's too little too late.

I agree with the PP about not keeping things in the dark. Kids have a good therapist with whom they can discuss painful aspects of Dad's behavior and get validation. I was always in the position of trying to encourage them to see Dad and encourage them not to see what he was doing as so bad (even though it was quite painful). There is so much pressure not to speak ill of the ex-spouse, but I think there is a way to be honest about problems and still "not speak ill".

There’s a difference between telling kids about infidelity by a guy who is otherwise a good dad and denying kids’ own experiences of their dad’s limitations and inability to be a good dad to them. If it was only the infidelity and not caused by a character trait or mental illness that affects the kids’ relationship with dad, then they don’t necessarily need to know. Though some kids may need to know because otherwise the divorce seems random, which is scary in and of itself. The point is to answer kids’ questions honestly and simply in age appropriate ways and to not add in a bunch of detail or anger or bad blood that they don’t need to have to deal with. Honest and sympathetic to the extent possible. People make mistakes. People grow apart, people are weak to temptation and some people are awful to live with even if they were faithful! If the ex was awful even without the infidelity, then what you’d tell the kid is different than if the ex was kind and loving and involved with the child but cheated.

Not all people who cheat are also terrible abusive people in the relationship/family. And you can’t treat those situations as the model for OP. You just can’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think this was well stated. It's absolutely vital to tell the kids the truth because they will ask why they are divorcing. Why is dad living with Suzie? Why do I have to share my dad and toys with Suzie's kids? Etc. Etc.

One can be honest, but not giving out marriage details or as someone suggested not using your child as a therapist. That's totally wrong. So is bad mouthing the other parent - the kids will form their own opinions.

If he ends up with the AP I don't see a reason OP would have to talk to her. Only talk to the ex about the kids.

For the last time: Because your kid is not your therapist. Because this is how most conversations would go:

Mom: dad is living with Suzie because he slept with her and I kicked him out
Dad: I slept with Suzie because mom cut-off all physical affection
Mom: I cut off affection because dad didn't meet my emotional needs
Dad: I was busy working because mom decided to downscale at work and ran up some unnecessary spending

You get the point. Seriously, there are always two sides to this. Your kid isn't the ref. Grow up.

But that is not how it actually plays out ... it plays out like this.

Kid: I met Suzie.
Mom: Oh, okay how was it?
Kid: <are we really going to pretend>
Mom: Okay, I know about Suzie, I'm sorry I did not warn you.
Kid: Yea, it was terrible and the only parent I trust now lied to me.

or

Mom: Your going to dads, your going to meet Suzie... she is dad's girlfriend.
Kid: Since when
Mom: Since a while ago.
kid: crying
Mom: I know it 's hard but dad made a mistake and now this is our life and we will work it out.
Kid: I don't want to go
Mom: I know it sucks, be nice, go to your room and read when it's too much.

Kid: You cheated on mom
Dad: mom is a bitch and bad in bed.
Kids: <okay you are a psycho, enjoy the nursing home>

Kid: Dad actually said you were a bitch and bad in bed
Mom: Well I guess I'm better off without him and you know exactly what I've dealt with for years.
Kid: That sucks
Mom: Yep! But we move on from "sucks"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are totally unrealistic. The kids ALWAYS find out. Older siblings will tell the younger one, or they hear it from a relative if not the other parent. If dad moves out, and in a home with the OW they get it right away. Or all of a sudden one of the other parents is introducing them to a new gf.

So what? I found out my dad cheated. I honestly had no immediate reaction, I was a teenager and obsessed with myself. You want to believe that when the kids find out why the marriage ended, everyone will rally around the betrayed spouse, cast off the cheater on an iceberg and burn all photos of him/her.

Somebody touch a nerve.

OP.. don't let your child end up this bitter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think this was well stated. It's absolutely vital to tell the kids the truth because they will ask why they are divorcing. Why is dad living with Suzie? Why do I have to share my dad and toys with Suzie's kids? Etc. Etc.

One can be honest, but not giving out marriage details or as someone suggested not using your child as a therapist. That's totally wrong. So is bad mouthing the other parent - the kids will form their own opinions.

If he ends up with the AP I don't see a reason OP would have to talk to her. Only talk to the ex about the kids.

For the last time: Because your kid is not your therapist. Because this is how most conversations would go:

Mom: dad is living with Suzie because he slept with her and I kicked him out
Dad: I slept with Suzie because mom cut-off all physical affection
Mom: I cut off affection because dad didn't meet my emotional needs
Dad: I was busy working because mom decided to downscale at work and ran up some unnecessary spending

You get the point. Seriously, there are always two sides to this. Your kid isn't the ref. Grow up.

I agree. I was never talking about that, nor wrote you should say those things to kids.

Only if the kids asked I would simply say dad didn't want to be married anymore. We're getting divorced and Suzie is at his house because that's who he's been dating.