What reasons WOULD you decide to leave/divorce over

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a widow, and I think anyone contemplating divorce for anything other than cheating, abuse or addiction should be forced to online date for 6 months and then decide. Because all the single people are broken or weirdos

You can’t make “cheating” divorce worthy unless you would also divorce over “low sex marriage”. Either sex is important, or it’s not. It can’t only be important when your spouse finds it elsewhere.

Well -we had a high sex marriage and he was having an affair. We had a helluva lot more sex and variety of sex (3-4 times per week) than he had with his 1-2 time per month married whore.

Cheating happens in good marriages. Affairs happen in good marriages. It is NOT as true that anyone cheating does not have good sex in their marriage or love their spouse. For men, in particular, that notion is more often not the case.

From a therapist "Over the years, I’ve had countless clients tell me that they love their spouse, they have a great relationship, they enjoy each other’s company, they respect each other, they’re attracted to each other, the sex is good, and there are no money or family or other obvious relationship problems. The only real issue is that they’re cheating, and they can’t, or don’t, want to stop.

So there the cheater sits, happy in his or her relationship, but still cheating and wondering why. “Surely,” the cheater says, “there must be something wrong with me or with my relationship, or I wouldn’t be doing this.” And typically, a therapist will start to explore those possibilities with them, searching for an obvious underlying problem to explore and address.

What I have learned over the course of nearly three decades as a therapist specializing in sex and intimacy issues is that infidelity is often a symptom of a flawed personality or relationship, but not always. Some people are reasonably emotionally healthy and in a wonderful primary relationship, and they still choose to cheat. And this is true for both men and women. Sometimes the cheater has an attachment deficit disorder. Sometimes the cheater has unresolved childhood trauma and uses the excitement of illicit sex and romance as a distraction from painful feelings.

What I have learned over the course of nearly three decades as a therapist specializing in sex and intimacy issues is that infidelity is often a symptom of a flawed personality or relationship, but not always. Some people are reasonably emotionally healthy and in a wonderful primary relationship, and they still choose to cheat. And this is true for both men and women.

Esther Perel, who verbalizes this idea in her book The State of Affairs, suggests four reasons why people who are generally well adjusted and happy in their primary relationship might nevertheless engage in infidelity, risking their marriage, their home, their family, their standing in their church or community, and more.

For the betrayed partner, sexual betrayal hurts the same, no matter the underlying cause, and there is no good reason to do it. From a therapy standpoint, however, the reasons a person cheats do matter. If a person is happy in his or her relationship and cheats as a way of exploring the self, the approach to healing is very different than with a person who cheats as a (misguided) way of addressing personal pathology, unresolved childhood trauma, emotional immaturity, or problems within the relationship.

[Anonymous]

^^
While women do cheat, the fact is men cheat more than women. It may come as cold comfort to women scorned, but they don’t seem to do so with the same intention as women. Cheaters, specifically repeat cheaters, tend to be opportunistic and capable of emotional compartmentalization. Why do men cheat? Some may cheat because they are unsatisfied, but, as a rule, men don’t cheat because they are unhappy. Men cheat because they think they can get away with it and because they’re willing to let themselves get away with it. Cheating is, strangely, a behavior that can make it hard to be a good father and husband, but also a behavior that isn’t actually correlated with familial love or care.

“They think, well, I just did this but in every other way I’m reliable, I’m responsible, I’m committed, I show up, I’m a really good guy. It’s just the cheating,” Robert Weiss, a therapist and author of Out of the Doghouse: A Step-by-Step Relationship-Saving Guide for Men Caught Cheating. “What they don’t understand is that women don’t think that way.”

I think this is why female married cheaters can't understand their APs. Women cheat when they are unhappy and want to leave the relationship. They assume if the guy is screwing them he must feel the same about his marriage. Not so the majority of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than cheating/affair/addiction.

Is there anything? I am finding after 2 kids and 11 years of marriage we are really 2 quite completely different people. He has never been my 'best friend' but has always been a friend with some common interests and someone I have loved.
However, this past year (preCOVID) has been rocky at best for me. We don't share similar future goals/experiences/hopes/dreams. We don't really share common interests anymore. Other than the kids I really can't think of anything I want or need to talk to him about.
He has been increasingly difficult to talk to because he thinks disagreeing with something requires a fight/argument. Even simple everyday things. I asked him if he could please turn on the dishwasher as i was heading out the door because i forgot to (i had just loaded it) and he proceeds to complain about having to stop work to do the dishes. I said to forget it i would do it when i get home and continued to go on and on. I left because i needed ot get to work and the kids to camps.

We had a big blow up a week ago about weather or not still take a family vacation to a tourist spot. I said I would rather err on the side of caution this time and postpone. He slammed his fists down and started screaming how "I just want to waste money". I said i think we should call to see if we can postpone or get a refund. If not we could discuss options. This wasn't good enough. He went on and on and on.
I have to say, something just clicked in me. I am just so over him and what our marriage has become. I just don't have it in me.
I work a stressful job at an outpatient clinic and just don't even want to go home most days.
Our kids are young (under 11) but I am just miserable and the thought of being with him for another 11 years makes me feel dead inside.

Get counseling.

I would divorce over the three "A's": abuse, adultery, addiction

“The three As?” Vast majority of marriages have one or more of those three occur at one point or another. Be realistic before you get married. Marriage is hard and understand what addiction actually means. Plenty of functional alcoholics in DC who also figure out a way to hold it together at home. Plenty of cheaters in this town too whose spouses either turn a blind eye, or also have an AP - and many of these homes are stable. Basically, I would leave if DH physically abused me.

People like you are the reason I stayed so long in an abusive relationship. I thought as long as he wasn't hitting me, I should stay. That is NOT true. Emotional and verbal abuse can destroy the abused partner. Infidelity as well.

People like me? You have no idea what my marriage is like and do not know me. I as well, have no idea what you went through but am very sorry you were in an abusive relationship.

To be more specific, I am referring when I say "People like you" to the poster immediately above me. What I took from that post and its tone (and perhaps I misread, but think not) is the idea, frequently promoted, that all or most marriages have abuse/infidelity or addition, and that posters who think they will not have to confront those issues are being "unrealistic" about marriage. That people who are alcoholics or adulterers do manage to stay with the spouse because they are "functional" or "hold it together at home" or the spouses "turn a blind eye" or "become cheaters" and you call those homes "stable". Then you say you would leave if your DH physically abused you -- and coming at the end of everything you wrote, that sounds like you are saying it is the only legitimate reason to end a marriage.

I believe you are promoting a very dangerous (especially to women) and unhealthy (to all, including the kids) idea about marriage -- that marriage is forever and only thing that should end it is if one person is physically abusing the other. Many people have a very high bar even for when physical abuse ends the marriage -- was it more than one time? did you try to get him into counseling? are you contributing to it?, etc.

Personally, I didn't leave my abuser until the second time he threatened to beat the crap out of me. Yes, that's right. Read that sentence and think about how crazy it is that I would stay with someone who even threatened to beat the crap out of me once. I have thought often about why I, a highly educated women with a strong sense of self esteem and a supportive family would have stayed with such a person. The answer comes down to the VERY strong culture of marriage and love that promotes the idea that we have "one" person that is our soulmate and that marriage is forever no matter what and that kids are permanently damaged by ending a marriage that has abuse, addiction or adultery more than they are damaged by staying in such a marriage. Add on top of that the prior to the first physical threat, I suffered through 6-7 years of verbal and emotional abuse. I recognize now that the verbal and emotional abuse -- coming after 3 very good years at the end of which we got engaged -- conditioned me and broke me down to normalize threats, even a threat of physical abuse.

It's not just the culture that supports that but also the legal system (for a long time prior to no-fault divorce) which allowed men to beat and rape their wives without criminalizing those acts as acts of assault or rape. In fact, the legal system today still does not really protect women who are victims of intimate partner physical abuse. Neither the culture nor the legal system protect women at all from verbal or physical abuse. I personally consider AOC's recent speech on the floor of the House to be the first public step in the culture confronting verbal abuse of women. Again, think how crazy that is.

So that is why I say people like you -- who promote the idea of marriage uber alles -- are the reason I (and other women) stay so long in abusive relationships.

It doesn't matter what your *marriage* is like. Maybe you have a great one, maybe not. What matters is the idea of marriage that you are promoting and the idea that women have an obligation to remain in relationships with perpetrators of abuse.

Your sorrow for the fact that I was in an abusive relationship is completely fake if you are at the same time promoting the idea that a marriage with an adulterer or functional alcoholic is "stable".

Thank you, PP. I am So proud of you for getting out and hope you are safe and happy now. I’m in a marriage that sounds similar to yours, before explicit threats. He once raised a fist at me in anger; that was two years ago and there has been no other physical threat but lots of unpredictable screaming rages. In between, he’s lots of people’s ideal husband: he cooks, he cleans, he does the dishes, he pays attention to the child, he brings me cups of tea while I’m working. It could be quiet for weeks and then BOOM, rage. All about politics, not something I have done in the relationship.

How did you get the courage to leave? How did you logistically do it? And how have you kept your kids safe since then? It really scares me how angry he will be, forever, when I become the enemy in his mind, and our child a weapon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you husband or wife is a stalker, it is time for divorce.

My spouse’s AP (who I did not know existed) stalked me for 4 years. Should her spouse divorce her for the stalking or the cheating? She also started stalking all of my spouse’s contacts and friends.

You should have divorced you spouse, therein lies the real problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a widow, and I think anyone contemplating divorce for anything other than cheating, abuse or addiction should be forced to online date for 6 months and then decide. Because all the single people are broken or weirdos

You can’t make “cheating” divorce worthy unless you would also divorce over “low sex marriage”. Either sex is important, or it’s not. It can’t only be important when your spouse finds it elsewhere.

Well -we had a high sex marriage and he was having an affair. We had a helluva lot more sex and variety of sex (3-4 times per week) than he had with his 1-2 time per month married whore.

Cheating happens in good marriages. Affairs happen in good marriages. It is NOT as true that anyone cheating does not have good sex in their marriage or love their spouse. For men, in particular, that notion is more often not the case.

From a therapist "Over the years, I’ve had countless clients tell me that they love their spouse, they have a great relationship, they enjoy each other’s company, they respect each other, they’re attracted to each other, the sex is good, and there are no money or family or other obvious relationship problems. The only real issue is that they’re cheating, and they can’t, or don’t, want to stop.

So there the cheater sits, happy in his or her relationship, but still cheating and wondering why. “Surely,” the cheater says, “there must be something wrong with me or with my relationship, or I wouldn’t be doing this.” And typically, a therapist will start to explore those possibilities with them, searching for an obvious underlying problem to explore and address.

What I have learned over the course of nearly three decades as a therapist specializing in sex and intimacy issues is that infidelity is often a symptom of a flawed personality or relationship, but not always. Some people are reasonably emotionally healthy and in a wonderful primary relationship, and they still choose to cheat. And this is true for both men and women. Sometimes the cheater has an attachment deficit disorder. Sometimes the cheater has unresolved childhood trauma and uses the excitement of illicit sex and romance as a distraction from painful feelings.

What I have learned over the course of nearly three decades as a therapist specializing in sex and intimacy issues is that infidelity is often a symptom of a flawed personality or relationship, but not always. Some people are reasonably emotionally healthy and in a wonderful primary relationship, and they still choose to cheat. And this is true for both men and women.

Esther Perel, who verbalizes this idea in her book The State of Affairs, suggests four reasons why people who are generally well adjusted and happy in their primary relationship might nevertheless engage in infidelity, risking their marriage, their home, their family, their standing in their church or community, and more.

For the betrayed partner, sexual betrayal hurts the same, no matter the underlying cause, and there is no good reason to do it. From a therapy standpoint, however, the reasons a person cheats do matter. If a person is happy in his or her relationship and cheats as a way of exploring the self, the approach to healing is very different than with a person who cheats as a (misguided) way of addressing personal pathology, unresolved childhood trauma, emotional immaturity, or problems within the relationship.

Cheating results from the perpetrator having a flawed personality. It's nothing to do with their marriage or the victim. It's as simple as that.

In most cases the cheating will occur again, in some that person can be helped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^
While women do cheat, the fact is men cheat more than women. It may come as cold comfort to women scorned, but they don’t seem to do so with the same intention as women. Cheaters, specifically repeat cheaters, tend to be opportunistic and capable of emotional compartmentalization. Why do men cheat? Some may cheat because they are unsatisfied, but, as a rule, men don’t cheat because they are unhappy. Men cheat because they think they can get away with it and because they’re willing to let themselves get away with it. Cheating is, strangely, a behavior that can make it hard to be a good father and husband, but also a behavior that isn’t actually correlated with familial love or care.

“They think, well, I just did this but in every other way I’m reliable, I’m responsible, I’m committed, I show up, I’m a really good guy. It’s just the cheating,” Robert Weiss, a therapist and author of Out of the Doghouse: A Step-by-Step Relationship-Saving Guide for Men Caught Cheating. “What they don’t understand is that women don’t think that way.”

I think this is why female married cheaters can't understand their APs. Women cheat when they are unhappy and want to leave the relationship. They assume if the guy is screwing them he must feel the same about his marriage. Not so the majority of the time.

Man here who cheated twice and there is some accuracy to this. Both my former APs left their marriages. I haven't. It's isn't so cut and dry though, my marriage was very low in sex, like 1-2x a month in a good month and even then it was begrudgingly. I asked multiple times to address it and wife wouldn't.

I am sure there are some men who cheat just for variety, some who would never cheat except for being sexually neglected, and many like me that are a hybrid of both. If a PP tells me she had an amazing sex life with her husband and he cheated anyway, I believe her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here are the reasons I left (I am a woman):

1. Disrespect
2. Not being consulted or considered in major life decisions
3. Emotional abuse
4. No love or affection and sexlessness for YEARS (most of the marriage)

Another reason to go is mental illness (not my issue but that is a reason to leave)

I personally think the things I mentioned are worse than cheating. If it was just cheating, I could stay. But not the four items I mentioned--those are divorce worthy, especially combined.

Looks like we were married to the same man. Plus mj in my case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are the reasons I left (I am a woman):

1. Disrespect
2. Not being consulted or considered in major life decisions
3. Emotional abuse
4. No love or affection and sexlessness for YEARS (most of the marriage)

Another reason to go is mental illness (not my issue but that is a reason to leave)

I personally think the things I mentioned are worse than cheating. If it was just cheating, I could stay. But not the four items I mentioned--those are divorce worthy, especially combined.

Looks like we were married to the same man. Plus mj in my case.

To the pp you quoted: cheating IS all of the first 3.

It is completely disrespectful to run around and lie behind your partner’s back, have lunch or coffee out in the open with AP, spend an overnight. It doesn’t get more disrespectful than lying about where you are going when you are going to f@ck somebody else.

Not being consulted on a major decision? How about sexually opening the marriage to others. That’s a major decision to stray from the monogamy you both pledged. Probably THE MOST major decision in a marriage.

Emotional abuse? How about the gaslighting that accompanies every affair. Making you question your sanity with things that don’t quite add up when confronted.

Delusional. Some of you are truly delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^
While women do cheat, the fact is men cheat more than women. It may come as cold comfort to women scorned, but they don’t seem to do so with the same intention as women. Cheaters, specifically repeat cheaters, tend to be opportunistic and capable of emotional compartmentalization. Why do men cheat? Some may cheat because they are unsatisfied, but, as a rule, men don’t cheat because they are unhappy. Men cheat because they think they can get away with it and because they’re willing to let themselves get away with it. Cheating is, strangely, a behavior that can make it hard to be a good father and husband, but also a behavior that isn’t actually correlated with familial love or care.

“They think, well, I just did this but in every other way I’m reliable, I’m responsible, I’m committed, I show up, I’m a really good guy. It’s just the cheating,” Robert Weiss, a therapist and author of Out of the Doghouse: A Step-by-Step Relationship-Saving Guide for Men Caught Cheating. “What they don’t understand is that women don’t think that way.”

I think this is why female married cheaters can't understand their APs. Women cheat when they are unhappy and want to leave the relationship. They assume if the guy is screwing them he must feel the same about his marriage. Not so the majority of the time.

Man here who cheated twice and there is some accuracy to this. Both my former APs left their marriages. I haven't. It's isn't so cut and dry though, my marriage was very low in sex, like 1-2x a month in a good month and even then it was begrudgingly. I asked multiple times to address it and wife wouldn't.

I am sure there are some men who cheat just for variety, some who would never cheat except for being sexually neglected, and many like me that are a hybrid of both. If a PP tells me she had an amazing sex life with her husband and he cheated anyway, I believe her.

So does your wife know about your affairs? Are you done? Or are you going to continue lying and endangering her health and continue to have sex with others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^
While women do cheat, the fact is men cheat more than women. It may come as cold comfort to women scorned, but they don’t seem to do so with the same intention as women. Cheaters, specifically repeat cheaters, tend to be opportunistic and capable of emotional compartmentalization. Why do men cheat? Some may cheat because they are unsatisfied, but, as a rule, men don’t cheat because they are unhappy. Men cheat because they think they can get away with it and because they’re willing to let themselves get away with it. Cheating is, strangely, a behavior that can make it hard to be a good father and husband, but also a behavior that isn’t actually correlated with familial love or care.

“They think, well, I just did this but in every other way I’m reliable, I’m responsible, I’m committed, I show up, I’m a really good guy. It’s just the cheating,” Robert Weiss, a therapist and author of Out of the Doghouse: A Step-by-Step Relationship-Saving Guide for Men Caught Cheating. “What they don’t understand is that women don’t think that way.”

I think this is why female married cheaters can't understand their APs. Women cheat when they are unhappy and want to leave the relationship. They assume if the guy is screwing them he must feel the same about his marriage. Not so the majority of the time.

Man here who cheated twice and there is some accuracy to this. Both my former APs left their marriages. I haven't. It's isn't so cut and dry though, my marriage was very low in sex, like 1-2x a month in a good month and even then it was begrudgingly. I asked multiple times to address it and wife wouldn't.

I am sure there are some men who cheat just for variety, some who would never cheat except for being sexually neglected, and many like me that are a hybrid of both. If a PP tells me she had an amazing sex life with her husband and he cheated anyway, I believe her.

So does your wife know about your affairs? Are you done? Or are you going to continue lying and endangering her health and continue to have sex with others?

A sexless wife surely must know that normal healthy men don’t live on monthly uninterested sex. What do you mean “are you done”? if he is still alive and married then that means he is meeting his sexual needs elsewhere. There is no “done” only dead or divorced.

[Anonymous]

He could get intimate with his wife. Go into sex therapy, individual and couples counseling. Hormone balancing for wife if needed, help so she’s not over-stressed. He could focus all the time and energy he’s putting into having affairs into his marriage and time with his kids. He’s got 1 foot out the door. It is possible to bring back the passion. But, of course, a cheater will tell themselves all kinds of stories to justify their behavior.

[Anonymous]

Danger, Deception, and Death. It is a matter of self-preservation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^
While women do cheat, the fact is men cheat more than women. It may come as cold comfort to women scorned, but they don’t seem to do so with the same intention as women. Cheaters, specifically repeat cheaters, tend to be opportunistic and capable of emotional compartmentalization. Why do men cheat? Some may cheat because they are unsatisfied, but, as a rule, men don’t cheat because they are unhappy. Men cheat because they think they can get away with it and because they’re willing to let themselves get away with it. Cheating is, strangely, a behavior that can make it hard to be a good father and husband, but also a behavior that isn’t actually correlated with familial love or care.

“They think, well, I just did this but in every other way I’m reliable, I’m responsible, I’m committed, I show up, I’m a really good guy. It’s just the cheating,” Robert Weiss, a therapist and author of Out of the Doghouse: A Step-by-Step Relationship-Saving Guide for Men Caught Cheating. “What they don’t understand is that women don’t think that way.”

I think this is why female married cheaters can't understand their APs. Women cheat when they are unhappy and want to leave the relationship. They assume if the guy is screwing them he must feel the same about his marriage. Not so the majority of the time.

Man here who cheated twice and there is some accuracy to this. Both my former APs left their marriages. I haven't. It's isn't so cut and dry though, my marriage was very low in sex, like 1-2x a month in a good month and even then it was begrudgingly. I asked multiple times to address it and wife wouldn't.

I am sure there are some men who cheat just for variety, some who would never cheat except for being sexually neglected, and many like me that are a hybrid of both. If a PP tells me she had an amazing sex life with her husband and he cheated anyway, I believe her.

So does your wife know about your affairs? Are you done? Or are you going to continue lying and endangering her health and continue to have sex with others?

A sexless wife surely must know that normal healthy men don’t live on monthly uninterested sex. What do you mean “are you done”? if he is still alive and married then that means he is meeting his sexual needs elsewhere. There is no “done” only dead or divorced.

Some men have low testosterone...that is the other exception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He could get intimate with his wife. Go into sex therapy, individual and couples counseling. Hormone balancing for wife if needed, help so she’s not over-stressed. He could focus all the time and energy he’s putting into having affairs into his marriage and time with his kids. He’s got 1 foot out the door. It is possible to bring back the passion. But, of course, a cheater will tell themselves all kinds of stories to justify their behavior.

His wife does not want to be intimate (otherwise they WOULD be intimate and he would NOT have an AP). If she wanted therapy they would already be going. If she wanted to "balance her hormones" she would have done that. He does NOT have 1 foot out the door: he is working hard to save their marriage. She doesn't want sex, she should be grateful that his AP is saving her marriage (doing what she does not want to do). But of course, you will tell us that celibacy is not so bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He could get intimate with his wife. Go into sex therapy, individual and couples counseling. Hormone balancing for wife if needed, help so she’s not over-stressed. He could focus all the time and energy he’s putting into having affairs into his marriage and time with his kids. He’s got 1 foot out the door. It is possible to bring back the passion. But, of course, a cheater will tell themselves all kinds of stories to justify their behavior.

His wife does not want to be intimate (otherwise they WOULD be intimate and he would NOT have an AP). If she wanted therapy they would already be going. If she wanted to "balance her hormones" she would have done that. He does NOT have 1 foot out the door: he is working hard to save their marriage. She doesn't want sex, she should be grateful that his AP is saving her marriage (doing what she does not want to do). But of course, you will tell us that celibacy is not so bad.

Cheaters are masterful storytellers. And the person they're mostly telling stories to is themselves. They don't always realize it. In fact, part of coming clean after infidelity is recognizing the stories they've told themselves. Stories like, "nobody appreciates me", or "I work so hard and get nothing in return" or even vague, amorphous stories about how life/work/family just isn't what they thought it would be. And so when someone shows up and pays attention to these guys, listens to their stories, it's intoxicating. They want it to continue. It can feel like a drug. Besides, they tell themselves another story, nobody needs to get hurt. ...but you're not doing good things... That's pretty much cold water on the "nobody gets hurt" story. Because people do get hurt. They are devastated. They are traumatized. Besides, Perel points out, even if nobody finds out ...you're not doing good things. So if you consider yourself a good guy but...you're not doing good things..., well, then, how do you square that circle? You don't. Not until your actions are aligned with your declared values.