Redshirted and Regretted It?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is where I am on the topic... also have a late summer birthday DS who I think is very smart and also is chameleon-like to those he is surrounded with so I think he could rise to any occasion. I wouldn't "redshirt" if he were going to public school. But since we'll at least attempt the competitive DC independent school system I realize it's the cold reality that we're not getting in at his deadline age, if we want a spot he'll likely be a 6 year old kindergardener or a 7 year old 1st grader, etc. depending on the feeder year.

Don't believe the myth and the justifying that other parents do. There are plenty of summer birthday boys in the private schools in their appropriate grade - I know 2 summer boys in the school of their choice at the right age. Your summer birthday boy will get in to a school, especially if he is smart like you say. The WPSSI tests are age adjusted and the evaluating teachers know the ages of the kids that they are looking at. And I have heard from one AD (a friend) that she instructs the teachers at the playdates to pay attention to age differences because they don't want a school full of kids with September birthdays! And unless you were told by the school to wait a year to start school (afgter playdates, or family divorce or death, etc.) she does not look well on parents who try to place a K aged child in Pre-K.

And don't believe this PP is the authority on this subject b/c she has spoken with one AD (from who knows what school). As for our family's situation, our summer b-day DC... 99.9% WPSSI, super bright, very well adjusted... was told by 3 of the "BIG 4" DC schools that they would not be admitting him last year b/c of his age. So we held him back for another year of PK. He's absolutely thriving.


This is the PP. My friend that "AD from who knows what school" is probably someone you spent a lot of time sucking up to. READ my message carefully. My friend said the following: "And unless you were told by the school to wait a year to start school .......... she does not look well on parents who try to place a K aged child in Pre-K.". It seems from your message that an AD suggested you wait a year....... and your point is.

My point is that your comment >>Your summer birthday boy will get in to a school, especially if he is smart like you say.<< was inappropriate. It is not true that all the top schools in DC will take a summer birthday boy "if he is smart". My point is that ours is plenty smart (99.9%, etc) and he STILL was counseled by the top schools to wait another year. I saw that you said "unless you were told by the school...", but I thought the "if he is smart" comment was misplaced and did not reflect the consensus opinion of all the top school AD's out there (but, in fairness, may reflect the option of your "who knows what school" AD)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And once again, I would suggest that summer birthdays are not the issue that many having problems with the concept are objecting to. Your summer birthday son is within the realm of age range for his class. Bully for him.

It is the child who is born in April, or December, 3 to 6 months older than your son, where there is an issue. These kids are in some case 18-19 months older than the 'right aged' spring birthdays who are 10 or so months younger than your son.

The post from the July redshirt mom exemplified why parents redshirt. It sounds like her son would have been fine going to school normally. Someone could write that post and substitute September through June for the word July. I too have a child at a Big 3 and there are summer birthdays. There also are some fall birthdays. Want the truth?

Many redshirt parents I've met in the public or private school world are the most aggressive with highly overindulged children. The real question is where does it end? June ? October? When the redshirt makes varsity as a freshman or sophomore and gives sh1t to others then it's time to stuff it. Are schools supposed to build more parking places for the sophomores?

FYI. Youth lacrosse leagues had to change to birth years due to redshirting. This isn't about the small for the age first born July/August child who appears to be on the low end academically.

How do you know he would have been fine if he went on time? Just because she said he was doing great now, doesn't mean there weren't reasons to wait a year at the time the decision was made. And apparently from your perspective, the only kids who are justified in waiting a year are those who are born in July/August, are small, and on the low end academically? I get it. That way, they will have no chance of surpassing your kid, right? And there could not possibly be any other legitimate basis for making this decision. I guess my June first born DS who is extremely bright wouldn't make the cut under your criteria.

As for us overindulgent, aggressive parents, I'm going to venture to guess given the fact that you are following this thread, care enough to post, and are worried about your child's success in lacrosse isn't a sign of your passive and lowkey parenting style. I imgaine you (and your child) are going toe to toe with the best of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Been lurking on this thread for the last week as I have a summer birthday (late July) son who we are considering "redshirting" because a top independent school suggested we do so.

It seems the consensus on this board (if there is such a thing) is that no one really has a "problem" with redshirting a May-Aug summer birthday child if its for the right reasons. What people do take issue with is redshirting a child born prior to May in order to give them an advantage in academics, athletics, etc.

Does anyone disagree with the above?

Most people regard late July and August as a flex period. Academic advantages might occur in early years but dissipate based on ability. Same for athletics but that kicks in later as others mature.

[Anonymous]

Wow, this thread has taken a definite nasty turn on what can already be a controversial subject. We have an incredibly small DS with 99.9+ WPPSI scores and who has loved circle time and story hour since he was 18 months old. My hope is that he can duck under all the flying elbows of the redshirts and other students yet rise above the fray. I can understand why parents are instructed/feel pressure to redshirt. We considered it for a passing moment, but decided he may not be small forever and that was the ONLY reason we were considering it.

I think the consequences will not be known for another five to ten years when the first cohorts of redshirts enter high school. The concerns here may be all for naught, there may be some serious social implications, or a mixture thereof.

Good luck to everyone and their decisions!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And once again, I would suggest that summer birthdays are not the issue that many having problems with the concept are objecting to. Your summer birthday son is within the realm of age range for his class. Bully for him.

It is the child who is born in April, or December, 3 to 6 months older than your son, where there is an issue. These kids are in some case 18-19 months older than the 'right aged' spring birthdays who are 10 or so months younger than your son.

The post from the July redshirt mom exemplified why parents redshirt. It sounds like her son would have been fine going to school normally. Someone could write that post and substitute September through June for the word July. I too have a child at a Big 3 and there are summer birthdays. There also are some fall birthdays. Want the truth?

Many redshirt parents I've met in the public or private school world are the most aggressive with highly overindulged children. The real question is where does it end? June ? October? When the redshirt makes varsity as a freshman or sophomore and gives sh1t to others then it's time to stuff it. Are schools supposed to build more parking places for the sophomores?

FYI. Youth lacrosse leagues had to change to birth years due to redshirting. This isn't about the small for the age first born July/August child who appears to be on the low end academically.

How do you know he would have been fine if he went on time? Just because she said he was doing great now, doesn't mean there weren't reasons to wait a year at the time the decision was made. And apparently from your perspective, the only kids who are justified in waiting a year are those who are born in July/August, are small, and on the low end academically? I get it. That way, they will have no chance of surpassing your kid, right? And there could not possibly be any other legitimate basis for making this decision. I guess my June first born DS who is extremely bright wouldn't make the cut under your criteria.

As for us overindulgent, aggressive parents, I'm going to venture to guess given the fact that you are following this thread, care enough to post, and are worried about your child's success in lacrosse isn't a sign of your passive and lowkey parenting style. I imgaine you (and your child) are going toe to toe with the best of us.

I'm not worried about my child's achievements. I mentionned the youth lacrosse change because it was a direct result of redshirting. I'm not passive but there comes a point where schools also need to have some sort of guidelines. Are you aware that some parents are now redshirting fall birthdays?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think the consequences will not be known for another five to ten years when the first cohorts of redshirts enter high school. The concerns here may be all for naught, there may be some serious social implications, or a mixture thereof.

Consequences are already being seen.

In the younger grades, we see teachers who are torn between supporting the older kids who are reading, who can handle more complex assignments, versus managing the age/grade appropriate kids who, in many cases, are forced to hire tutors to keep up; by drawing out the age ranges in a single class it is more challenging for teachers to teach children across such a broad spectrum.

If children are not able to succeed in age-appropriate classrooms what kinds of challenges is this phenomenon bringing to the classroom filled with children who are younger; by having children of the same age in multiple grades schools are disadvantaging numerous students in terms of future academic placements by not putting them on a level playing field with their peers.


In the middle school years, we are seeing kids who are more physically and emotionally mature causing social angst among some of the kids are who are grade/age appropriate. In these years, the older kids are naturally more precocious, causing significant social issues within their school.

As children age milestones of puberty, driving, etc. can become explosive as some will be experiencing these more than a year ahead of their classmates

Playing sports outside of school become difficult as children who are too "old" for the grade are ineligible to play with their classmates in organizations that adhere to traditional standards

Placing children of wide age ranges in a single class the social dynamics are much more difficult and challenges for those on both ends of the spectrum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think the consequences will not be known for another five to ten years when the first cohorts of redshirts enter high school. The concerns here may be all for naught, there may be some serious social implications, or a mixture thereof.

Consequences are already being seen.

In the younger grades, we see teachers who are torn between supporting the older kids who are reading, who can handle more complex assignments, versus managing the age/grade appropriate kids who, in many cases, are forced to hire tutors to keep up; by drawing out the age ranges in a single class it is more challenging for teachers to teach children across such a broad spectrum.

If children are not able to succeed in age-appropriate classrooms what kinds of challenges is this phenomenon bringing to the classroom filled with children who are younger; by having children of the same age in multiple grades schools are disadvantaging numerous students in terms of future academic placements by not putting them on a level playing field with their peers.


In the middle school years, we are seeing kids who are more physically and emotionally mature causing social angst among some of the kids are who are grade/age appropriate. In these years, the older kids are naturally more precocious, causing significant social issues within their school.

As children age milestones of puberty, driving, etc. can become explosive as some will be experiencing these more than a year ahead of their classmates

Playing sports outside of school become difficult as children who are too "old" for the grade are ineligible to play with their classmates in organizations that adhere to traditional standards

Placing children of wide age ranges in a single class the social dynamics are much more difficult and challenges for those on both ends of the spectrum.

Please provide some evidence for these claims other than your own personal views (or comments you claim to have heard from others). Got an article? A report? A study? A blog post even? Anything? I've issued this same challenge on other redshirting threads at DCUM, and no one has ever taken me up on it. All I get in response is a lot of yak-yak along the lines of "one teacher at my son's elementary school says ...." I've got no strong feelings about redshirting -- pro or con. I'm happy to be convinced of your viewpoint. But when I see dire claims like these, and no one is willing to back them up with any support, I start to assume they're just the usual DCUM bullshit.

This redshirting topic has been beaten to death many times on DCUM, and the discussion never leads anywhere useful. Indeed, I'm pretty sure from the writing styles of the most vocal posters that it's largely the same small gang of people who keep pushing the issue over and over.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/41445.page#277862
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/47747.page#328892
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/21702.page#132003
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/4866.page
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/41445.page

[Anonymous]

11:02 here, no I do not have a blog post etc. My post is based on firsthand observations, discussions with faculty and administrators as local schools and other parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And once again, I would suggest that summer birthdays are not the issue that many having problems with the concept are objecting to. Your summer birthday son is within the realm of age range for his class. Bully for him.

It is the child who is born in April, or December, 3 to 6 months older than your son, where there is an issue. These kids are in some case 18-19 months older than the 'right aged' spring birthdays who are 10 or so months younger than your son.

Well I think this may be contributing to the confusion and/or heatedness of the conversation. Technically, a child born September 30th would be eligible to start K at age 4 (turning 5 within the month), so if you hold him back until the following year you are in fact "red-shirting." And apparently some people strongly object to this option. Others, as suggested by your post seem to be okay with pushing the "red-shirting" line back to approximately May or June, but find April too far. At this point I wonder how arbitrary it becomes. Does that mean May 1st is okay but April 30th is not? I really can't tell, but I am quite sure that the actual parents have a much firmer grip on the situation as it pertains to their actual child than I ever possibly could.

[Anonymous]

11:18 here again. For anyone who is really interested in redshirting, after you've read the 41 pages (!) of posts linked above, and the 8 more pages (and counting) of this say-it-again thread, here are a couple more threads with the same topic.

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/38943.page
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1486.page#6716

[Anonymous]

Here are some citations:

http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/news/coverStories/pros_cons_holding_out.php

*In fact, retrospective and cross-sectional analyses show redshirts doing less well than their peers on measures of behavior problems, Graue says. Although it is not argued that redshirting has caused increased rates of social and emotional difficulty, it does not appear to solve social or emotional problems.


http://www.ncld.org/content/view/1058/480/

*Studies have suggested that when these students reach adolescence, they may experience some behavioral difficulties, perhaps stemming from their being a year or more older than their peers. In fact, students who are more than a year older than their classmates are more likely to drop out of high school.

* Young children of the same age vary considerably in terms of their overall development. By adding another year to this age range within the classroom, the learning and behavioral challenges posed are going to be that much greater.


* Some young children with summer birthdays have a difficult time adjusting to school ... some do not. Some children come to school 'ready to read' or with good counting skills...some do not. Widening the gap of 'cans' and 'can not's' in this pool of youngsters can create unwelcome competition and pressure within the classroom, and intensify the range of emotions that ordinarily help to make the kindergarten classroom such a special and welcoming experience.

* Ask any child who has had to repeat a grade how they feel about having been "left back" and you'll quickly realize how serious a decision this is for parents and educators to make. Research suggests that while the positive benefits of starting school late seem to fade during the subsequent two to three years, the emotional baggage of having been retained lingers on. An early study asked young students to rate a series of stressful events, and being left back ranked third, immediately following "going blind" and "losing a parent." Point made!

[Anonymous]

Thank you! As you no doubt realize from reading those cited studies, the data on redshirting is decidedly mixed, and the professionals who study this issue are rarely as confident (pro or con) in their opinions of redshirting as the people who post on DCUM.

For anyone interested, here is a link to a recent NY Times article that overviews the issue: http://www.pacificoaks.edu/PDFFiles/ChildrenSchoolPA/When%20should%20a%20kid%20start%20k.pdf

Also, here is a link to a 1988 article on the same issue (http://www.colorado.edu/education/faculty/lorrieshepard/PDF/Escalating%20Academic%20Demand.pdf) which indicates that redshirting is not some new phenomenom, and instead has been around for over 20 years.

Thanks against for posting the links to back up your views. The NCLD page is particularly good and not one I'd seen before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think the consequences will not be known for another five to ten years when the first cohorts of redshirts enter high school. The concerns here may be all for naught, there may be some serious social implications, or a mixture thereof.

Consequences are already being seen.

In the younger grades, we see teachers who are torn between supporting the older kids who are reading, who can handle more complex assignments, versus managing the age/grade appropriate kids who, in many cases, are forced to hire tutors to keep up; by drawing out the age ranges in a single class it is more challenging for teachers to teach children across such a broad spectrum.

If children are not able to succeed in age-appropriate classrooms what kinds of challenges is this phenomenon bringing to the classroom filled with children who are younger; by having children of the same age in multiple grades schools are disadvantaging numerous students in terms of future academic placements by not putting them on a level playing field with their peers.


In the middle school years, we are seeing kids who are more physically and emotionally mature causing social angst among some of the kids are who are grade/age appropriate. In these years, the older kids are naturally more precocious, causing significant social issues within their school.

As children age milestones of puberty, driving, etc. can become explosive as some will be experiencing these more than a year ahead of their classmates

Playing sports outside of school become difficult as children who are too "old" for the grade are ineligible to play with their classmates in organizations that adhere to traditional standards

Placing children of wide age ranges in a single class the social dynamics are much more difficult and challenges for those on both ends of the spectrum.

Nothing you said is specifically relevant to "red-shirting". Within any classroom with a strict 12-month and not a day more age span, you will have kids who are far ahead academically and kids who are struggling to keep up. You will have kids who can sit at a desk/in a circle for long periods of time, and kids who need to move rapidly from activity to activity.

By middle school, you will have kids who are well along through puberty, and kids who are nowhere near beginning. Kids who are almost obsessively interested in the opposite sex, and kids who have no interest whatsoever.

I have a middle school aged son who plays on a travel-level sports team, which means that age cutoffs are strictly enforced - no "red-shirting" and you need to provide a birth certificate to prove your age. One boy on the team is shaving; one still has baby teeth. The height range is over 12 inches. The size range in uniforms is from a Youth Large to a Men's Large. The age range is 50 weeks.

[Anonymous]

Right, and your son may or may not be on the team with his classmates.

Doesn't logic indicate, based on what you describe, that an added age variance only exacerbates the conditions in your post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you! As you no doubt realize from reading those cited studies, the data on redshirting is decidedly mixed, and the professionals who study this issue are rarely as confident (pro or con) in their opinions of redshirting as the people who post on DCUM.

For anyone interested, here is a link to a recent NY Times article that overviews the issue: http://www.pacificoaks.edu/PDFFiles/ChildrenSchoolPA/When%20should%20a%20kid%20start%20k.pdf

Also, here is a link to a 1988 article on the same issue (http://www.colorado.edu/education/faculty/lorrieshepard/PDF/Escalating%20Academic%20Demand.pdf) which indicates that redshirting is not some new phenomenom, and instead has been around for over 20 years.

Thanks against for posting the links to back up your views. The NCLD page is particularly good and not one I'd seen before.

EXACTLY!! Just one more reason that individual parents are so much better equipped to assess the needs of their own particular child than any uniform one-size-fits-all policy could every possibly be. Thank you!