Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

They represent a tiny minority.

[Anonymous]

Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.

[Anonymous]

Ugh, thanks to all the OT posts this got moved to Religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.

Lol. You are quite ignorant of the facts. Almost 50 percent of Israeli jews are secular.

OP, You are taking out your frustration of Israeli politics and religionon your unborn son and this decision. What does the fact that you can't get married in Israel have to do with circumcision of your son? Your dh married you. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what you can and cannot do in Israel. You and he need to figure this out together. His is your child, together. You get to decide these things, as a family, it should not be one person making the decision and for the love of God, don't make your choice to circumcise or not a political statement! How do you think your son would feel about that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

The intact man you dumped is better off.

Maybe. He went back to Australia where I'm sure he was more comfortable looking like he did as he would have been in the vast majority, just like my husband and sons are here. People sugar coat it, but lots of women simply have preferences. It's okay to admit that.

Circumcised men are not the "vast majority" here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States

In 2005, about 56 percent of male newborns were circumcised prior to release from the hospital according to statistics from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality.[21]

Most MEN (not children born in 2005) in the US are circumcised. According to the CDC, a little more than 80% of men are circumcised. For sure, I think the trend is going the other way and people are choosing to circumcise less frequently. I also think there are regional and demographic differences (for example, my understanding is that Hispanics in the US tend not to circumcise which may partly explain the decline in circ rates).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, see the old threads on the medical benefits. Even in the developed world, there are some -- including less vulnerability to STDs and other infections. I could re-post the links, but they are easy to find. They aren't huge, but they are concrete benefits. No circumcised man I have know has ever seemed to have any kind of issue at all with not being sensitive enough down there.

I agree that you need to separate the issues with the circumcision with your issues with his family and Jewishness. I am not Jewish, and married to a Jewish man who is partly Israeli, but mostly secular. We circumcised. He wanted it, and I wanted it. It has health benefits. There are "fundamentalist" Jewish strains just as there are in Christianity, Islam, and pretty much any other religion. I don't know if you are white, but let's just say that you are, and that you married someone who was Chinese, or some other cultural identity. You'd probably have the same type of cross-cultural issues. (See My Big Fat Greek Wedding.) Frankly, I think you need to get over it. You knew he was Jewish and Israeli when you married him, right? Maybe you didn't undertand what that entails, but you should have. So I'd suck it up and be less sensitive.

Thank you, yes I knew. But just as I'm sure you'd have a learning curve with Chinese culture or whatever, I did too. I was not expecting to discover that there is a developed democratic country that prohibits marriage on the basis of religion. Honestly, it seems pretty intense to me. I have come round to the place of understanding a little bit better how some live with these cognitive dissonances, but that doesn't mean it is something that I have to accept if it goes against my values.

OP, I think you're really stuck on the Israeli Jewish/Orthodox model of doing things, which is understandable since your husband is Israeli. But that is not the way most Jews do things in the US. Honestly what you are describing is one of the reasons I would never want to live in Israel even though I am Jewish. I don't want to live in a place where religion -- even my own religion -- runs the country. But you're in the US now and it sounds like you plan to stay for a while. So check out the Jewish stuff here, go to a Conservative or Reform shul, see what you think. Or not, if you are not interested and DH is not interested. But you sound very bitter and you need to get over that or it's going to make problems down the road.

Now, the circumcision is different. You don't want to do it, DH doesn't want to do it. So don't do it. Easy as that. The only reason we did it is because we do adhere to that cultural tradition. Our son is Jewish and will be raised within the Conservative movement and it was a no brainer for us. Just like piercing baby girls' ears is in some cultures. In truth, I would be surprised to learn that a Jewish boy wasn't circumcised, but I wouldn't dwell on it long nor consider him less Jewish. That's his own and his rabbi's business, not mine. If your son wants to formally convert when he is older, he can get circumcised then, or perhaps the rules will have relaxed enough in some congregations that he won't need to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

Is this still true across the board? Will it be in 18+ years?

https://www.facebook.com/Jews-Against-Circumcision-165424110207450/

It will certainly still be true for the Orthodox, both American and Israeli. If OP is concerned with her son being accepted as Jewish in Israel, he'll need a full Orthodox conversion and circumcision. If he only needs to be accepted in the US, he can go the Reform route and it may not be required, particularly 20 years from now.

The Orthodox, especially the ultra-Orthodox who control this stuff in Israel, are the original traditionalists. They aren't changing for anything. I doubt they would change even if the medical establishment came out strongly against it. It would take some sort of serious, drastic issue for them to change this of all things. Circumcision is considered the physical mark of G-d's covenant with the Jewish people. Traditionalists aren't going to give that up.

[Anonymous]

i have no opinion on circumcision for religious reasons.

However, my son is 7, not circumcised, and has had zero problems. I felt pretty strongly about not doing it, and his dad didn't care one way or the other. So we didn't circumcise, and it's really no big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.

Lol. You are quite ignorant of the facts. Almost 50 percent of Israeli jews are secular.

OP, You are taking out your frustration of Israeli politics and religionon your unborn son and this decision. What does the fact that you can't get married in Israel have to do with circumcision of your son? Your dh married you. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what you can and cannot do in Israel. You and he need to figure this out together. His is your child, together. You get to decide these things, as a family, it should not be one person making the decision and for the love of God, don't make your choice to circumcise or not a political statement! How do you think your son would feel about that?

OP here. I know it's a long thread, but maybe read through before you take the time to chastise me. I explained what it has to do with my decision and it's not the reductive, ideologically overdetermined caricature you are making it out to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, see the old threads on the medical benefits. Even in the developed world, there are some -- including less vulnerability to STDs and other infections. I could re-post the links, but they are easy to find. They aren't huge, but they are concrete benefits. No circumcised man I have know has ever seemed to have any kind of issue at all with not being sensitive enough down there.

I agree that you need to separate the issues with the circumcision with your issues with his family and Jewishness. I am not Jewish, and married to a Jewish man who is partly Israeli, but mostly secular. We circumcised. He wanted it, and I wanted it. It has health benefits. There are "fundamentalist" Jewish strains just as there are in Christianity, Islam, and pretty much any other religion. I don't know if you are white, but let's just say that you are, and that you married someone who was Chinese, or some other cultural identity. You'd probably have the same type of cross-cultural issues. (See My Big Fat Greek Wedding.) Frankly, I think you need to get over it. You knew he was Jewish and Israeli when you married him, right? Maybe you didn't undertand what that entails, but you should have. So I'd suck it up and be less sensitive.

Thank you, yes I knew. But just as I'm sure you'd have a learning curve with Chinese culture or whatever, I did too. I was not expecting to discover that there is a developed democratic country that prohibits marriage on the basis of religion. Honestly, it seems pretty intense to me. I have come round to the place of understanding a little bit better how some live with these cognitive dissonances, but that doesn't mean it is something that I have to accept if it goes against my values.

OP, I think you're really stuck on the Israeli Jewish/Orthodox model of doing things, which is understandable since your husband is Israeli. But that is not the way most Jews do things in the US. Honestly what you are describing is one of the reasons I would never want to live in Israel even though I am Jewish. I don't want to live in a place where religion -- even my own religion -- runs the country. But you're in the US now and it sounds like you plan to stay for a while. So check out the Jewish stuff here, go to a Conservative or Reform shul, see what you think. Or not, if you are not interested and DH is not interested. But you sound very bitter and you need to get over that or it's going to make problems down the road.

Now, the circumcision is different. You don't want to do it, DH doesn't want to do it. So don't do it. Easy as that. The only reason we did it is because we do adhere to that cultural tradition. Our son is Jewish and will be raised within the Conservative movement and it was a no brainer for us. Just like piercing baby girls' ears is in some cultures. In truth, I would be surprised to learn that a Jewish boy wasn't circumcised, but I wouldn't dwell on it long nor consider him less Jewish. That's his own and his rabbi's business, not mine. If your son wants to formally convert when he is older, he can get circumcised then, or perhaps the rules will have relaxed enough in some congregations that he won't need to.

OP here. I am not bitter for not being accepted, if that's what you think. It just goes against my values to discriminate for religious reasons or to think you are somehow different in God's eyes than any other people. I know not all Jews, and so on. But it's not my truth. Not my values. I don't want my son caught up in that whole way of thinking...and circumcision is culturally & historically linked to that. If you read the thread, you'll know my husband isn't religious and is actually quite opposed to doing things for religious reasons, as most secular Israelis are. Circumcision for some reason has survived longer than the ban on pork. I can't say I understand why, exactly, because presumably there were some health benefits from not eating pork also back in the day (like parasites or what not).

[Anonymous]

If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

Matriachrial lineage religions threaten you? Duly noted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

OP here. Yeah, I had a bit of a WTF moment reading that post too! I mean fine, do it to go with the flow of your culture or what not -- rituals aren't rational. But when it comes to adult conversion it is just so weird that he'd have to cut off part of his penis to join the religion. I get living your life a certain way, joining a community, exploring beliefs. But what in the world does trimming his foreskin have to do with the kind of person he is? As I said upthread, have no idea who my son will be, but I very much hope he won't end up thinking that who he is depends on a flap of skin. That is really besides the point, also of anything I have found profound or attractive about Jewish thought and culture.