Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

This is so gross. I imagine this attitude has no basis on Jewish tradition and arose out of practicality. This is also the reason that OP is treated poorly amongst the Jewish. I can't think of a less compelling reason to get the circumcision. Yuck. Just yuck.

Matriachrial lineage religions threaten you? Duly noted.

2 Things bother me in the above post:

A man needing to undergo an adult circumcision to convert.

[Anonymous]

And the second is that it's easier for men to convert than women.

This is so misogynistic and you think it's okay because it's based on matrilineal descent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

Haha...the Torah is so intense, this is probably the least of it.

Anyway, if we had to look at the number of crazy things that occur to so few people, we'd be at it for a long time wouldn't we?

My personal opinion is that Sarah egged Abraham on as a joke. Good way to get the guys out of her hair for a couple days. She seems to have had a good sense of humor.

[Anonymous]

I mean honestly; is this the kind of thing that would ever occur to a woman? Let me take my newborn son's penis and cut it so he can be closer to God. I honestly can't imagine a woman thinking that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

-1 Don't worry. You aren't the only one who thinks negatively about Judaism. Hitler shared your beliefs in Judaism as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

-1 Don't worry. You aren't the only one who thinks negatively about Judaism. Hitler shared your beliefs in Judaism as well.

Oh come on. How can you equate one practice, which doesn't even involve the conscious assent of the main person involved, with the core of the religion? There's a lot more to Judaism than circumcision. That's why some Jews are beginning to challenge it and they can do so and still be Jews. Rethinking religion = reform, not genocide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

-1 Don't worry. You aren't the only one who thinks negatively about Judaism. Hitler shared your beliefs in Judaism as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think your use of the term "religious crap" tells me all I needs to know. Best of luck.

Me too. Tells me OP is smart and she and her husband will probably come to the right conclusion to not circumcise. I've heard of doing a ceremony where they just prick the baby's foreskin, but even that seems a bit cruel. It's such a cruel and archaic practice. If your DH isn't even religious, I don't know why you would do this to your son. You can never take it back. You sound smart, OP, you hsould feel free to put your foot down and say no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

-1 Don't worry. You aren't the only one who thinks negatively about Judaism. Hitler shared your beliefs in Judaism as well.

Oh come on. How can you equate one practice, which doesn't even involve the conscious assent of the main person involved, with the core of the religion? There's a lot more to Judaism than circumcision. That's why some Jews are beginning to challenge it and they can do so and still be Jews. Rethinking religion = reform, not genocide.

The issue is when someone says to rethink their religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my religious tradition required inflicting pain on an infant for no medical benefit, I would rethink my religion.

+1

How does this occur to so few people?

-1 Don't worry. You aren't the only one who thinks negatively about Judaism. Hitler shared your beliefs in Judaism as well.

Oh come on. How can you equate one practice, which doesn't even involve the conscious assent of the main person involved, with the core of the religion? There's a lot more to Judaism than circumcision. That's why some Jews are beginning to challenge it and they can do so and still be Jews. Rethinking religion = reform, not genocide.

The issue is when someone says to rethink their religion.

Please elaborate upon "the issue". So far, you're losing.

-np

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you realize how secular Israel is? Other than Jerusalem, if you go to Tel Aviv, the clubs are hopping and the pork is flying on Shabbat.

Israel is not secular. It's a theocracy.

Some secular people do exist, especially in Tel Aviv, and do learn to ignore that basic fact, but please. You are not fooling anyone.

Lol. You are quite ignorant of the facts. Almost 50 percent of Israeli jews are secular.

OP, You are taking out your frustration of Israeli politics and religionon your unborn son and this decision. What does the fact that you can't get married in Israel have to do with circumcision of your son? Your dh married you. He clearly doesn't give a shit about what you can and cannot do in Israel. You and he need to figure this out together. His is your child, together. You get to decide these things, as a family, it should not be one person making the decision and for the love of God, don't make your choice to circumcise or not a political statement! How do you think your son would feel about that?

OP here. I know it's a long thread, but maybe read through before you take the time to chastise me. I explained what it has to do with my decision and it's not the reductive, ideologically overdetermined caricature you are making it out to be.

i did read the entire thread. i am not the only one who stated what i did. i am sorry that you took offense to what i said but not others - but you keep coming back to Israel and the things that Israel does and what it stands for that upsets you. that's fine, that is your right to feel that way, but it has no place in making this decision about circumcision.

[Anonymous]

We didn't circumcise. I let DH decide and he had read about the reduced sensitivity and decided not to.

It did not work out for DS. He had this ballooning problem most of his life - where the pee couldn't get out fast enough so his skin would balloon up while it slowly leaked out? He went to a few urologists and we tried different things. Basically though he always had trouble with it and it did not work out.
At 19 he had surgery to remove his foreskin which was a biggish deal with anesthesia and big stitches which can't be good for 'sensation' (there's a whole yahoo group about it).

Anyway, I generally vote for not taking off body parts that you were born with but with boys and hygiene (what?) and with the amount of trouble it was to have it done as an adult versus a baby I'd most likely circumcise a new son.

Also if your son will be with many Jewisb boys that might sway me towards circumcision as well.

I wouldn't knock your kids Jewish heritage either - it's a wonderful community of people that you might like to participate in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We didn't circumcise. I let DH decide and he had read about the reduced sensitivity and decided not to.

It did not work out for DS. He had this ballooning problem most of his life - where the pee couldn't get out fast enough so his skin would balloon up while it slowly leaked out? He went to a few urologists and we tried different things. Basically though he always had trouble with it and it did not work out.
At 19 he had surgery to remove his foreskin which was a biggish deal with anesthesia and big stitches which can't be good for 'sensation' (there's a whole yahoo group about it).

Anyway, I generally vote for not taking off body parts that you were born with but with boys and hygiene (what?) and with the amount of trouble it was to have it done as an adult versus a baby I'd most likely circumcise a new son.

Also if your son will be with many Jewisb boys that might sway me towards circumcision as well.

I wouldn't knock your kids Jewish heritage either - it's a wonderful community of people that you might like to participate in.

Let me elaborate that we are not Jewish and we enjoy the Jewish community.

[Anonymous]

OP, I've read the entire thread. Re the PP, there are online communities of people who have had problems with circumcised penises, too. Neither option will guarantee your son a life of no penis issues.

Just to reflect back at you what I've heard from you, it's really clear that you don't want to do this and your DH doesn't give a hoot.

It's also clear that you're a thoughtful curious person trying to live an ethical and meaningfully communal life.

I would:

(1) Not circumcise

(2) Join the most liberal Jewish community you can find. I know you say there's no reason to do this because your DH is secular. No biggie. There are super secular communities of Jews out there -- from the liberalist of Reform synagogues to just basically meet-up groups. It doesn't matter if it's not an Israeli thing. You sound like you will be spending some time in the US, so do it for the benefit of your time here. If you go to Israel and it makes no sense there, so what. American Jews go to Israel all the time and deal with a bit of culture clash. I think your son will find community among the liberalist of Jews here who are open and questioning tradition like you are. You could also join a Unitarian congregation and get the same type of thing. It just really seems like imparting some sort of communal identity on your son would be important to you. It would also give you a forum (of real people, invested in your development, rather than online ones who really don't care) to keep working through your values. Developing our values is what we do as humans.

Good luck.