Circumcision/Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

It's actually pretty well-known why they said it. First, because it's true--it has some benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. But also because if they came out against it, the likely result would be that insurance companies would not cover the procedure.

The insurance thing makes sense. The other part just seems so weird. If the benefits outweigh the risks, then it's a beneficial procedure and you'd think that many more parents would be in your camp of wanting the best medical risk profile for their child overall. What's comparable to this, medically, in terms of procedures that are good for infants but not routinely recommended? I can't think of anything.

The APA said that the benefits outweigh the risks, but not by a lot. The benefits are pretty minimal for most people. I suspect that they would have taken a neutral stance but for the insurance issue.

+1
It absolutely has to do with insurance and cultural influence. Not science.

And this is precisely why it is so hard to get clarity on the issue for people who don't want to base their decision primarily on cultural/religious traditions.

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the whole thread, and my sons are circumcised as my husband who is not Jewish. But in what world does a little boy's penis look like a grown man's? The whole "looking like dad" thing is beyond bizarre to me. How close do your young sons get to their dad's penis? Do your husbands have inch-long hairless penises?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

I thought it was getting close to 50/50 today -- is that not true?

In any case, my son isn't going to conform to the cultural norm any way you cut it. That's like saying I should make sure his skin is really white because, you know, most women in America prefer that and it's the NORM.

[Anonymous]

Women in america prefer white men?


What?

[Anonymous]

I'm glad that your son is not going to conform to any cultural norms. His long hair will be so pretty, and the cute dresses you can put him in! Just think!

Or, wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

The intact man you dumped is better off.

Maybe. He went back to Australia where I'm sure he was more comfortable looking like he did as he would have been in the vast majority, just like my husband and sons are here. People sugar coat it, but lots of women simply have preferences. It's okay to admit that.

Circumcised men are not the "vast majority" here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States

In 2005, about 56 percent of male newborns were circumcised prior to release from the hospital according to statistics from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality.[21]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

In 2010, the AAP also came out in favor of a mild form of female genital cutting. They soon rescinded the policy, but only due to intense public backlash.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband is Jewish, I am not. To dumb down our decision, the main reason we are circumcised our son (hospital circumcision, not bris) is because his dad is circumcised. So our son's penis will always look like his dad's.

Re: the "religious crap" part, we have found a very welcoming Reform temple that we attend from time to time. I have not been made to feel anything other than welcome--there are many interfaith families there in addition to us. Reform Judaism considers a child to be Jewish if either of their parents are Jewish AND they are raised Jewish. Not just because their mom is Jewish.

I have never understood this rationale.

I mentioned it to my (Jewish) DH, who said "I don't even want to think about my dad's penis, much less compare mine to his."

Our pediatrician made the convincing case that this is not a good reason. Little boys' penises look nothing like grown mens'. No hair, etc. will your husband wax his pubes so his his penis looks like a child's?

I hope that your husband does not do this. However, as a woman, I can say that I prefer a circumcised penis, because it is what I am used to and what I know. Just like most men prefer women with shaved armpits. I encountered one uncut penis in my single days and actually ended the relationship, I simply wasn't into it. I'm putting my sons in the majority because like it or not, cultural norms matter.

Circumcised boys may not be your cultural norm, but they are ours.

The intact man you dumped is better off.

Maybe. He went back to Australia where I'm sure he was more comfortable looking like he did as he would have been in the vast majority, just like my husband and sons are here. People sugar coat it, but lots of women simply have preferences. It's okay to admit that.

Circumcised men are not the "vast majority" here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States

In 2005, about 56 percent of male newborns were circumcised prior to release from the hospital according to statistics from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality.[21]

Here is more recent data. I live in one of the states that are "red". or over 80% of children are circumcised. This doesn't take into account those who choose to circ later in life. http://www.savingsons.org/2012/11/us-hospital-circumcision-rates-by-state.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a cut man and my son is intact. And it doesn't matter.

Honestly, 'my son's genitals should look like mine' is one of the creepiest and most bizarre concepts I've heard.

+1

We are not Jewish, but I never ever knew anyone with babies who were not circumcised (I babysat a lot). My oldest son's uncircumcised penis was literally the first one I had ever seen IRL. It has caused no problems throughout my 4 year old's albeit short life thus far. My DH who is cut was in favor of not circumcising both of our boys. They don't sit around comparing. He also has hair where DS does not, and it will be something we answer in an age appropriate way if and when the topic ever comes up (just like the question, "Why doesn't Mama have a penis?")

I'm not saying that circumcising is a bad decision (OK maybe I am a little), but you don't make a second poor decision just because it's what you did the first time around. We evaluated the research and made an educated decision that I don't regret.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

Probably.

Both my ob-gyn and our pediatrician were against it. The ob-gyn commented that she has seen circumcisions done badly or botched completely and that the effects of that are terrible - that like any surgery, it is not risk-free.

She would not do it for ethical reasons and told me that if we wanted it, we would need to find someone else to do it.

This made me think about the HPV Vaccine, and how pediatricians aren't always telling parents about it and recommending that kids get it (around age 12). I generally really respect doctors, but I think they have to think in the moment and aren't always giving full consideration to a patient's future long-term (sexual) health http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2016-07-05/a-new-push-to-get-doctors-to-recommend-the-hpv-vaccine

[Anonymous]

So we circumcised for various non-religious reasons. I would circumsize only because it means he can convert to Judaism if he would like when he is older. It has nothing to do with you or your feelings about Judaism or even your husbands. He is going to need to make his own way and don't make him contemplate circumcision as an adult/cut him off from conversion. Funny enough, my DH would have loved to convert but isn't circumcised and has had issues with his foreskin and infections all his life.

[Anonymous]

Why did you marry someone Jewish?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who's a Reformed Jew and a mother of a circumcised boy, I agonized over this but... the week my son was born the American Academy of Pediatrics came out in favor of circumcision, and that cemented my intent. Beyond hygiene, lower rates of HIV infection, lower incidence of cervical cancer for long-term female partners... it was pretty compelling to me. My son also had to see urologists for some kidney issues: interestingly all have commented that they're glad he was circumcised (and that the mohel did a great job). Hopefully your son won't have any medical issues, but, just in case... I'm glad I did it.

I just saw that -- thank you. Interesting that they say it has medical benefits but not enough to recommend it as a routine procedure. I wonder if they wanted to dodge the controversy?

Probably.

Both my ob-gyn and our pediatrician were against it. The ob-gyn commented that she has seen circumcisions done badly or botched completely and that the effects of that are terrible - that like any surgery, it is not risk-free.

She would not do it for ethical reasons and told me that if we wanted it, we would need to find someone else to do it.

This made me think about the HPV Vaccine, and how pediatricians aren't always telling parents about it and recommending that kids get it (around age 12). I generally really respect doctors, but I think they have to think in the moment and aren't always giving full consideration to a patient's future long-term (sexual) health http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2016-07-05/a-new-push-to-get-doctors-to-recommend-the-hpv-vaccine

The long-term health benefits of circumcision are negligible at best. Most of the world doesn't perform this surgery on baby boys.

[Anonymous]

Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Echoing the poster at 16:46, if your son ever decides to convert to Judaism, he will need to be circumcised. Needless to say, it's a much more complicated and painful procedure when done on an adult. If you want to ensure your son is able to meaningfully choose between his two cultures later in his life, you should circumcise him as an infant (when the procedure is quick and mostly pain-free).

Also note that in reality, men are able to convert to Judaism much more easily than women--especially men of patrilineal Jewish descent. That's partially due to the huge gender imbalance in those seeking to convert, with prospective female converts vastly outnumbering prospective male converts. It is a good idea to keep your son's options open, especially given his favorable position vis a vis conversion.

Is this still true across the board? Will it be in 18+ years?

https://www.facebook.com/Jews-Against-Circumcision-165424110207450/