DW has incredibly low sex drive - not sure what can be done to help

[Anonymous]

If there were a Anti-Viagra more women would be switching out DH's vitamins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

I mean, no- it's not. Sorry, nothing happens to someone who doesnt have sex, other than maybe your stress level might rise a bit, no matter how high your libido is.

Justify it all you want, but please dont try to define sex as a "need". It's just absurd.

[Anonymous]

Refreshing honesty from alot of the ladies here.
Sounds like a lot women who no longer care for sex.
How sad. Don't be surprised when your men stray with a younger woman who still has some libido.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Refreshing honesty from alot of the ladies here.
Sounds like a lot women who no longer care for sex.
How sad. Don't be surprised when your men stray with a younger woman who still has some libido.

And then it's time to slap him with divorce papers and get ready for that sweet, sweet alimony money.

Kaching!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

I mean, no- it's not. Sorry, nothing happens to someone who doesnt have sex, other than maybe your stress level might rise a bit, no matter how high your libido is.

Justify it all you want, but please dont try to define sex as a "need". It's just absurd.

NP, living in a home with 4 walls, you only need shelter of some kind amirite? You sound absurd. Seriously, your poor husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Refreshing honesty from alot of the ladies here.
Sounds like a lot women who no longer care for sex.
How sad. Don't be surprised when your men stray with a younger woman who still has some libido.

And then it's time to slap him with divorce papers and get ready for that sweet, sweet alimony money.

Kaching!!

I was surprised my friend got alimony for life or until she remarries. Only because she has a disability (bad knee) and he made a lot of money. She also got half the house, and half of their retirement though he use to claim it was all his. Their problems were his grown kids, and a horrible mil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Refreshing honesty from alot of the ladies here.
Sounds like a lot women who no longer care for sex.
How sad. Don't be surprised when your men stray with a younger woman who still has some libido.

They are not exactly lining up outside the door.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Refreshing honesty from alot of the ladies here.
Sounds like a lot women who no longer care for sex.
How sad. Don't be surprised when your men stray with a younger woman who still has some libido.

Same guy, once again posting. I bet you cheat on your left hand with your right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

I mean, no- it's not. Sorry, nothing happens to someone who doesnt have sex, other than maybe your stress level might rise a bit, no matter how high your libido is.

Justify it all you want, but please dont try to define sex as a "need". It's just absurd.

NP, living in a home with 4 walls, you only need shelter of some kind amirite? You sound absurd. Seriously, your poor husband.

Also food, clothing, health services.

Things which improve your quality of living but are not essential for living are not NEEDS. They may be nice, but they arent needs.

That was your vocab lesson for today. Come back tomorrow for another first-grade level language lesson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

I mean, no- it's not. Sorry, nothing happens to someone who doesnt have sex, other than maybe your stress level might rise a bit, no matter how high your libido is.

Justify it all you want, but please dont try to define sex as a "need". It's just absurd.

NP, living in a home with 4 walls, you only need shelter of some kind amirite? You sound absurd. Seriously, your poor husband.

Also food, clothing, health services.

Things which improve your quality of living but are not essential for living are not NEEDS. They may be nice, but they arent needs.

That was your vocab lesson for today. Come back tomorrow for another first-grade level language lesson.

If I knew your husband I'd throw him a freebie. He deserves it after having to put up with the likes of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

Once again the same male poster, sorry "controlling" gave it away.

You should get a hobby of some sort! Join a club?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

Once again the same male poster, sorry "controlling" gave it away.

You should get a hobby of some sort! Join a club?

There are both men and women who think that poster is nuts. But if telling yourself it's only one person makes you feel better, go for it I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

I mean, no- it's not. Sorry, nothing happens to someone who doesnt have sex, other than maybe your stress level might rise a bit, no matter how high your libido is.

Justify it all you want, but please dont try to define sex as a "need". It's just absurd.

NP, living in a home with 4 walls, you only need shelter of some kind amirite? You sound absurd. Seriously, your poor husband.

Also food, clothing, health services.

Things which improve your quality of living but are not essential for living are not NEEDS. They may be nice, but they arent needs.

That was your vocab lesson for today. Come back tomorrow for another first-grade level language lesson.

Bahahahah! vocab lesson...first-grade...you were being too kind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But things change, people change. Maybe her idea of "having sex" is something that happens less often, or something that does not come before all the other chores and responsibilities that make a life and a family with kids run smoothly.

And you know what? THAT"S OKAY.

You know you live in a patriarchy when people literally try to frame "not wanting to have sex" as if it is some kind of selfish, cruel crime.

YOU ARE NOT OWED SEX. NOT BY YOUR GIRLFRIEND, NOT BY YOUR SPOUSE.

So if that was the reason you got married- well, you made a poor life choice!

Try to be mature, take control for your own orgasms, realize and internalize the fact that your wife has a different libido than you and that that is perfectly, 100% valid.

So you have changed and no longer want sex? Or it's at the bottom of your priority list?
I can't force you to have sex with me. I can (and will) make my ongoing sexual needs heard.
I won't just give up silently. Just because, to you, sex is obsolete, does not make it so for me.
At the end of the day, I will not "rape" you and you can certainly choose to have little to no sex.
But that decision costs you my fidelity. I will not be celibate on your account.

"Needs". Sex is not a need, despite the efforts of men throughout history to get it thought of as such.

It's nice, sure. It can make you feel closer to a person.

But it's not a requirement for life.

It's not about giving up, it's about reframing your expectation of what constitutes a relationship. It's about considering her perspective in this issue. It's about not putting your WANT to have sex above her bodily autonomy.

It's about finding other ways to relieve that tension, of finally admitting that your wife has a different libido than you, and that that's okay, and that you do not get to have sex from someone who doesnt want it.

It's about reversing the sexual entitlement that you, as a male, have been taught since birth. It's about question whether this indeed the "desperate need" you have built up in your mind, or simply a disagreement, another aspect of your relationship where you see things differently, and not automatically assuming that your way is the correct one.

Female here with a higher sex drive than my now ex husband. After more than 7 years of sexual frustration, I got more and more open about how the status quo didn't work for me and could not continue. The day X chastised me for self pleasuring, when he wouldn't be bothered to have sex with me, was the day I left. Some of us don't take kindly to our "partners" controlling our sex drives. Only a low libido person would (incorrectly) describe sex as "not a need." Actually, biologically, it is a need.

Once again the same male poster, sorry "controlling" gave it away.

You should get a hobby of some sort! Join a club?

There are both men and women who think that poster is nuts. But if telling yourself it's only one person makes you feel better, go for it I guess.

Newsflash! There are other posters who think YOU are nuts, not just one.

But if telling yourself that's it's been the same person responding throughout this thread makes you feel better, go for it I guess.