Including young adult not on good terms with in family vacation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

Yes you can and you should.

That way when you are dying the one you neglected won’t feel obligated to drop everything to be there.

Doing so will only further and deepen this rift. This person will now feel isolated and rejected from their family, the last safe space they had.
Very bad advice.

I'm pretty sure that was said sarcastically.

Whoops, thx for the clarification! My mistake!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

Pretty sure your responses here show that’s a lie. Unfortunately no one can help you understand your fault in this when you refuse to see it. You’re the perfect mom, raised two perfect kids and one major f*** up. You’ll continue treating this child worse. You’ll continue to spoil and love on your other children. You - and only you - will push your child away, possibly permanently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems you are locked into a conflict spiral with one of your children, OP. Please consider what part your behavior has played. You seem to be holding a serious grudge against this young adult because he could not stick to his studies. You seem to be very preoccupied with a transactional view of your respective roles: you give him money, he does what you want. And now you've made clear to him that you despise him, well, he's making it clear to others, and perhaps you, that he's bitter about your rejection and lack of understanding. It's never going to get better unless the most mature person stops retaliating. If you both persist, you will never see each other again. Is this what you actually want?

What you should also know is that lots of young adults are not fully mature, and don't yet fully value the sacrifices their parents made for them, or struggle with accepting their parents as they are. Usually it's because despite being helpful, the parent was also controlling, or authoritarian in a way the young adult has not yet processed and accepted. It happens very often, because different generations have different ideas on parental authority and how much psychological support to offer their kids. Money is not the only support that children need.

I was such a young adult: my mother was verbally abusive. She herself does not see it in the same light, because she paid for my schooling and clothes and food, and was a mother hen, so why would I complain about her yelling and constant criticism about everything from my grades to my looks? At 30, I understood that she would never understand. At 40, I now accept she did the best she could with the upbringing and emotional bandwidth she had. We have a cordial long-distance relationship. I keep visits short, because otherwise she starts criticizing everything again. It takes A LOT of maturity for an adult to look past the hurt their loved ones cause. Your young adult does not have that maturity, but YOU are supposed to have it.

I advise you to give your child grace while they continue to mature. They are bitter and will stay bitter for a long time. But it's important to keep family ties, in my opinion (which is why I never cut off my mother entirely). I'm sure on some level it does the rest of the family good to see each other. You don't know what the future holds. You need to take the long view and the high road. I don't think you'll regret it.

This is good advice OP - and perhaps getting therapy yourself from a parenting perspective. If you haven't already. This kid is crying out for love but in a very difficult way. My son is oppositional. Been there and done that. And parenting kid with oppositional behavior takes a different kind of parenting. Not one I understood intuitively. I'm not perfect but I have some better relational skills now, that help us all get along better and help him be more successful. And as he ages, he gets better at managing his behavior too. You can't control your kid but you can control your approach to your kid.

You can set boundaries. Set expectations of being polite to one another. Straight out tell your kid you love them and want them on this trip. And that all families have complicated dynamics that can bring out hurt. And you get that. But you ask they not say mean things to others during the vacation and you have asked the others to do the same. And you set that same expectation for yourself. Bring them in on the (expectations) planning - tell them you are all transitioning to having adult kids with adult needs - but still find joy and value in getting together like this once a year. Yest you know families are complicated. Each person has unique needs. You are all figuring out boundaries as people age and become more independent. How can you all make this work? Together.

Still expect some hurt. But shape this as a complex family dynamic and not just the one child dynamic. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a particular therapist you'd recommend that was good with dealing with an oppositional child?

Lol, I was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder as a teen. Yes -- I was oppositional and defiant. Because I had been neglected and horribly abused. That is the case with most ODD.

It's convenient to assign blame and avoid responsibility for your actions, even if those were partially reactions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems you are locked into a conflict spiral with one of your children, OP. Please consider what part your behavior has played. You seem to be holding a serious grudge against this young adult because he could not stick to his studies. You seem to be very preoccupied with a transactional view of your respective roles: you give him money, he does what you want. And now you've made clear to him that you despise him, well, he's making it clear to others, and perhaps you, that he's bitter about your rejection and lack of understanding. It's never going to get better unless the most mature person stops retaliating. If you both persist, you will never see each other again. Is this what you actually want?

What you should also know is that lots of young adults are not fully mature, and don't yet fully value the sacrifices their parents made for them, or struggle with accepting their parents as they are. Usually it's because despite being helpful, the parent was also controlling, or authoritarian in a way the young adult has not yet processed and accepted. It happens very often, because different generations have different ideas on parental authority and how much psychological support to offer their kids. Money is not the only support that children need.

I was such a young adult: my mother was verbally abusive. She herself does not see it in the same light, because she paid for my schooling and clothes and food, and was a mother hen, so why would I complain about her yelling and constant criticism about everything from my grades to my looks? At 30, I understood that she would never understand. At 40, I now accept she did the best she could with the upbringing and emotional bandwidth she had. We have a cordial long-distance relationship. I keep visits short, because otherwise she starts criticizing everything again. It takes A LOT of maturity for an adult to look past the hurt their loved ones cause. Your young adult does not have that maturity, but YOU are supposed to have it.

I advise you to give your child grace while they continue to mature. They are bitter and will stay bitter for a long time. But it's important to keep family ties, in my opinion (which is why I never cut off my mother entirely). I'm sure on some level it does the rest of the family good to see each other. You don't know what the future holds. You need to take the long view and the high road. I don't think you'll regret it.

This is good advice OP - and perhaps getting therapy yourself from a parenting perspective. If you haven't already. This kid is crying out for love but in a very difficult way. My son is oppositional. Been there and done that. And parenting kid with oppositional behavior takes a different kind of parenting. Not one I understood intuitively. I'm not perfect but I have some better relational skills now, that help us all get along better and help him be more successful. And as he ages, he gets better at managing his behavior too. You can't control your kid but you can control your approach to your kid.

You can set boundaries. Set expectations of being polite to one another. Straight out tell your kid you love them and want them on this trip. And that all families have complicated dynamics that can bring out hurt. And you get that. But you ask they not say mean things to others during the vacation and you have asked the others to do the same. And you set that same expectation for yourself. Bring them in on the (expectations) planning - tell them you are all transitioning to having adult kids with adult needs - but still find joy and value in getting together like this once a year. Yest you know families are complicated. Each person has unique needs. You are all figuring out boundaries as people age and become more independent. How can you all make this work? Together.

Still expect some hurt. But shape this as a complex family dynamic and not just the one child dynamic. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a particular therapist you'd recommend that was good with dealing with an oppositional child?

PP here. The therapy and parenting approaches are for the parent. Not the kid. My child was already in therapy and we went to Quince Orchard Therapy which I think is now Orchard Mental Health. It doesn't have to be from abuse and neglect, like another poster mentioned. And my son didn't get the full ODD diagnosis. He has oppositional traits. It stems from emotional dysregulation and low frustration tolerance, which are common in kids with ADHD and anxiety, which my son has. Where I would come down hard on misbehavior, I needed to approach differently. Instead, I praised him all the time for the good things he did. I very clearly stated expectations, that were reasonable for his abilities, and the consequences, which were also reasonable. And then tried to set him up for success as much as possible. But I did impose consequences when he did something wrong. And by wrong I mean things like hitting people.

For example, not knowing your dynamic with your kid, I'd approach them and say you are planning the vacation, and you'd really like them to come. That you enjoy their company. You realize there were some tense moments last time (helpful if you have specific examples) and ask for their input on how to best avoid them. And praise and thank them genuinely when they help deliver. This, honestly, would be the exact opposite of what I would WANT to do. Against every instinct. And that's why it's a parenting approach and not therapy for the kid. If that makes sense. I took some PEP classes when my son was younger, but I would try the teen ones now for your young adult. https://pepparentonline.org/l/products?courseCategory=Age:+Teens&sortKey=created_at&sortDirection=asc&page=1

Keep the long game in mind. You are trying to develop/transition into an adult relationship with your kid, who is at times difficult. They probably think the same about you. It doesn't mean either of you is a bad person. Just that you clash. But that can be managed with some practice and know-how. Wishing you all the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be fair, one person with bad attitude (regardless of why they have it)can ruin a vacation for whole group and that's sad.

Very true.
We (self husband and two adult kids) have a running joke

Who will ruin the trip first?

😫

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

It’s hard to put yourself out there, so kudos to you, OP.

Even if only for confirmation, it likely would be very beneficial for you to talk one-on-one, individually, with a psychodynamic/family systems therapist to help work through your feelings and possible next steps.

Your adult child who's especially challenging at the moment is still your kid, who you obviously care about, and a detached professional can often offer a helpful perspective.

Truthfully, it’s not your job to field how your kids interact and get along once they’re adults, and since you’ve mentioned a few times that you’re playing referee, it also might be worth holding off on this vacation as a family (as another pp suggested), until things are calmer. Why not take a break and get away with just your spouse for some genuine relaxation?

Families can go through rough patches, and hopefully with some time and tlc for everyone, things will eventually become more stable and peaceful. Best to you.

[Anonymous]

I would invite the adult child you have issues with, but not for the whole vacation. Offer two or three days (set days) and keep it light. If they’re misbehaving or disrespecting everyone, they have a set day limit after which they must depart. I do this with our adult step-DD that is in college. She can be a bit of a drama queen and can be very selfish on family trips (sleeping till 10/11am and expecting everyone to whisper and walk on tippy toes). She doesn’t want to stay with us and little kids anyways for a whole week and rather be hanging out with her boyfriend or friends and doing her own thing. It works for everyone. We keep it light and polite and she can always bring a friend or her boyfriend to stay with her. We pay for the food and entertainment of course.

[Anonymous]

Does the middle child have special needs or COULD they have special needs? If so, post in special needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have experience with this as the kid who was left out.

If you leave them out and your other children are invited, there are ramifications. From there on out, they are correct to be bitter about you.

What is their responsibility to be respectful? Is it ok to announce you only came on the trip because “it’s free”, etc?

These are just words. They don't have as much weight as rejecting a young adult. Why has this person not succeeded? If their cognitive reasoning isn't great, then it stands to reason that they would also blurt out hurtful stuff without thinking. They will probably not change, but do they actually hate you, OP? Probably not.

True. I can get over the rude comments directed toward the parents.
The most upsetting thing they did was being really mean to a sibling. Not going to post the details, but it was mean spirited and ended up with older sibling in tears. This child tends to be an instigator and likes to poke people.

Yeah, you scapegoat this child. You view them as the problem in the family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

It’s hard to put yourself out there, so kudos to you, OP.

Even if only for confirmation, it likely would be very beneficial for you to talk one-on-one, individually, with a psychodynamic/family systems therapist to help work through your feelings and possible next steps.

Your adult child who's especially challenging at the moment is still your kid, who you obviously care about, and a detached professional can often offer a helpful perspective.

Truthfully, it’s not your job to field how your kids interact and get along once they’re adults, and since you’ve mentioned a few times that you’re playing referee, it also might be worth holding off on this vacation as a family (as another pp suggested), until things are calmer. Why not take a break and get away with just your spouse for some genuine relaxation?

Families can go through rough patches, and hopefully with some time and tlc for everyone, things will eventually become more stable and peaceful. Best to you.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe pass on the group trip and invite everyone to come visit you at home on their schedule (offer to pay for their transportation). Then they can decide if they want to plan with a sibling or just come on their own, or not come at all. Put the ball in the middle kid's court to figure out.

Some of these posters are being particularly harsh. You do have a responsibility to all your children and it's not fair to solely index on the problem child at the expense of others. I have a friend in her 50s whose parents did that with her younger brother who is an alcoholic and pretty darn mean and she is so mad at them, and attending therapy herself, for years of expecting her to put up with it and always forcing his inclusion because she was more agreeable and better adjusted. It's such a difficult situation to be in as parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Therapists can't do anything if there is actually a psychiatric and/or learning disorders that are undiagnosed and untreated, OP. Did you have them evaluated at some point as a child? It's very common for people with ADHD, anxiety, depression, or for example dyslexia, to feel "less than". I have a friend couple who ignored all the warnings from teachers about their kid's reading issues, and then were surprised when at 16, she asked for an evaluation herself. It turns out she has dyslexia and ADHD. She is not going to college. It's too late to turn things around. You can bet they're kicking themselves.

To your other point about their sibling relationships, perhaps you can survey your kids and relatives who will be attending and ask whether it's OK that this young person come.

Yep. I am guessing learning disability/psychiatric needs/neurodivergence that went unsupported.

I failed out of college and had a very strained relationship with my family and they went on vacation (the Bahamas) without me. It was the final straw for me. It took me years, but I figured out my own needs, and eventually graduated from not only college but law school. To this day I have anger (I'd even say rage) issues about the lack of support (including that Bahamas trip) and resent how successful I could have been earlier if I'd just had the support I needed.

Were you deliberately mean to your siblings?

I don't condone not emotionally supporting a kid because they drop out of college, but if you were a bully to your siblings, your parents have a responsibility to them too. If not, your comparison is a fraction of the story and I'd say not even the most critical part.

[Anonymous]

I’m getting ready for my sibling’s funeral.

My sibling was a middle child with challenging behaviors and antagonistic behaviors.

My sibling died from their mental illness, alone and before their time.

This sibling created many a challenge on holidays and vacations.

When it’s all said and done, we always tried our best to welcome, support and love this family member even if their mental illness and behaviors made things difficult.

I am filled now with sadness and a void—a void that existed for many years of estrangement and now permanent.

I would offer the perspective that you can only control your own actions and reactions. Looking back, I know I did my very best to be inclusive and to let that person know that they were loved, even if it was not able to be received .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I would cancel vacation instead of choosing to blacklist one of my children.

+1. You won’t “teach them a lesson”. They are obviously struggling, as are you, with their life and current situation.