Including young adult not on good terms with in family vacation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a awful parent who created a scapegoat and then wonders why they feel alienated.

You don't like them, they know. They want lobe and acceptance more than a vacation. If you can't give then what they need stop stringing them along and don't invite them. They hold hope that you will somehow change but emotionally they protect themselves "I'm only here for the gifts" translates to "I'm hoping to have some connection and feel loved and validated by my family". I know you cannot hear the translation because you created the toxic dynamic.

Well this is DCUM after all. This was bound to show up. You sound very loving.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Therapists can't do anything if there is actually a psychiatric and/or learning disorders that are undiagnosed and untreated, OP. Did you have them evaluated at some point as a child? It's very common for people with ADHD, anxiety, depression, or for example dyslexia, to feel "less than". I have a friend couple who ignored all the warnings from teachers about their kid's reading issues, and then were surprised when at 16, she asked for an evaluation herself. It turns out she has dyslexia and ADHD. She is not going to college. It's too late to turn things around. You can bet they're kicking themselves.

To your other point about their sibling relationships, perhaps you can survey your kids and relatives who will be attending and ask whether it's OK that this young person come.

Yes, of course we have. All it resulted in was a general “adjustment disorder” diagnosis. I feel like everyone is pro-therapy now but honestly it hasn’t gotten us much improvement after years…

That's one of the iffiest disorders of the DMV-V, and only given if there's evidence of a major stressor, kind of like a temporary form of PTSD. Symptoms are not supposed to last. Did they have a major stressor?

Also, please don't confuse therapists and psychologists. The former cannot conduct evaluations, the latter are trained to conduct evaluations. Different trainings, different disciplines.

We’ve seen both and I know the difference. The diagnosis came from a psychologist and i should correct it to “adjustment disorder with anxiety”. No major stressors.
Therapy is a slow process and who knows, maybe we’d be worse off if the child hadn’t been going, but it doesn’t seem to be helping much either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have experience with this as the kid who was left out.

If you leave them out and your other children are invited, there are ramifications. From there on out, they are correct to be bitter about you.

What is their responsibility to be respectful? Is it ok to announce you only came on the trip because “it’s free”, etc?

These are just words. They don't have as much weight as rejecting a young adult. Why has this person not succeeded? If their cognitive reasoning isn't great, then it stands to reason that they would also blurt out hurtful stuff without thinking. They will probably not change, but do they actually hate you, OP? Probably not.

DP
I used to say mean things to my mom and there is nothing wrong with my cognition. I didn't even realize how much rage I had for her at the time or why I couldn't control saying terrible things. Years later i realized I was the product of emotional neglect. She even admits openly to leaving me in my crib or locked in my room all day because she "couldn't stand me" - from infancy. Now when I'm older and successful she wants a relationship and wonders why I'm so spiteful. I spent years mourning a relationship we can never have. I always went when I was invited- hoping for the love she could never give. I'm sensing something similar here. OP probably doesn’t realize how horrible she is. After all, my mom says her only problem is that she "loved me too much" f-ing ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

[Anonymous]

Can you tell middle child rude behavior will not be tolerated? If they start let them know they won't be invited next year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have experience with this as the kid who was left out.

If you leave them out and your other children are invited, there are ramifications. From there on out, they are correct to be bitter about you.

What is their responsibility to be respectful? Is it ok to announce you only came on the trip because “it’s free”, etc?

These are just words. They don't have as much weight as rejecting a young adult. Why has this person not succeeded? If their cognitive reasoning isn't great, then it stands to reason that they would also blurt out hurtful stuff without thinking. They will probably not change, but do they actually hate you, OP? Probably not.

DP
I used to say mean things to my mom and there is nothing wrong with my cognition. I didn't even realize how much rage I had for her at the time or why I couldn't control saying terrible things. Years later i realized I was the product of emotional neglect. She even admits openly to leaving me in my crib or locked in my room all day because she "couldn't stand me" - from infancy. Now when I'm older and successful she wants a relationship and wonders why I'm so spiteful. I spent years mourning a relationship we can never have. I always went when I was invited- hoping for the love she could never give. I'm sensing something similar here. OP probably doesn’t realize how horrible she is. After all, my mom says her only problem is that she "loved me too much" f-ing ridiculous.

DP, I had a mom like this too. The book Mother Hunger was helpful. Library has it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

Why didn’t they want to go with you? What were the issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

I’m so sorry, pp.

[Anonymous]

It’s really easy to develop uneven relationships and create resentment. Do you ever spend time with this adult kid alone, just having lunch, going to a museum, shopping…anything they are interested in? I think it’d be valuable. Sometimes people don’t want to necessarily open up but just being together feeling valued and loved with zero deep talk creates a stronger bond.

[Anonymous]

What is this child’s trauma history?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

Why didn’t they want to go with you? What were the issues?

They don't have any concrete reasons. I am not mean, not rude, not a drug addict, not a criminal, not loud, not messy, etc. My oldest sibling and spouse are the kind of people who get a kick out of isolating and criticizing one person, excluding them, making fun of them. I have seen them do this in various parts of the family - especially in his. In his family this sibling doesn't like that one, one sibling is always the odd one out, etc. I am my mom's least favorite so they get away with it.

The only real issue is that they always expected me to take the suckiest sleeping situation (think: basement bedroom with mold or living room couch) so that each of their kids can have their own bedroom. Like, they would expect to kick me out of my childhood bedroom and sleep on the couch while their elementary age kids each had their own rooms. I would stick up for myself and say a grown up should get a room and two siblings can share a room and that was seen as selfish on my part. Oh, and they resented that I would sometimes set boundaries when they tried to treat me like the household help (like they would expect me to drop everything and babysit with no notice even if I had other plans, they expected me to haul all their unnecessary beach crap out to the beach despite me being injured, etc.)

[Anonymous]

I would because I'd take the opportunity to try to reach the child.

I also have a soft spot for this because I have a teenager going through some stuff at TJ and it's not easy to get through to him, but he'll talk on long drives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For people saying OP must include the adult child, at what point do you think OP is off the hook for paying for an adult child's vacation? My parents stopped paying for me after I finished college, which seems reasonable. They also took my younger siblings on spring break trips when I was in college, which I couldn't attend because our spring breaks didn't align. This also seems reasonable.

When I turned 18 yo, my parents told me that they wouldn't buy Christmas presents for adult children. I was the oldest so I stopped getting Christmas presents Freshman year of college. I would come home on break and on Christmas morning I'd watch my siblings open extravagant presents while I got nothing. Zip. When my siblings became adults 5-7 years later, my parents decided that Christmas would be awful without presents so they revised the rule, so then adult children would get presents, but not married children (i.e., me). It was pretty darn awful. I guess I'd just make sure whatever threshold you set you actually stick to--you can't bend the rule in a few years because you want to go on vacation with your younger children without being an awful person.

[b]It's also super rude to invite someone on a vacation you know they can't afford[b].

This is interesting (I’m OP). Isn’t not being able to afford trips a natural consequence of not going to college? (Esp when that college was paid for you). Do we really need to help finance trips because this child can’t afford it when others can because they went to college? That doesn’t seem like behavior I’d like to encourage.

They're an adult. You treat them like someone you care about and don't rub it in that they can't afford a vacation. You don't have to pay for them, but you don't get to be a jerk about it and rub it in by inviting them when you know they can't afford it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have experience with this as the kid who was left out.

If you leave them out and your other children are invited, there are ramifications. From there on out, they are correct to be bitter about you.

What is their responsibility to be respectful? Is it ok to announce you only came on the trip because “it’s free”, etc?

These are just words. They don't have as much weight as rejecting a young adult. Why has this person not succeeded? If their cognitive reasoning isn't great, then it stands to reason that they would also blurt out hurtful stuff without thinking. They will probably not change, but do they actually hate you, OP? Probably not.

DP
I used to say mean things to my mom and there is nothing wrong with my cognition. I didn't even realize how much rage I had for her at the time or why I couldn't control saying terrible things. Years later i realized I was the product of emotional neglect. She even admits openly to leaving me in my crib or locked in my room all day because she "couldn't stand me" - from infancy. Now when I'm older and successful she wants a relationship and wonders why I'm so spiteful. I spent years mourning a relationship we can never have. I always went when I was invited- hoping for the love she could never give. I'm sensing something similar here. OP probably doesn’t realize how horrible she is. After all, my mom says her only problem is that she "loved me too much" f-ing ridiculous.

You make no sense about her and contradict yourself. No one wants to be around someone who hates them. You don't and she doesn't.

[Anonymous]

To be fair, one person with bad attitude (regardless of why they have it)can ruin a vacation for whole group and that's sad.