Including young adult not on good terms with in family vacation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

Why didn’t they want to go with you? What were the issues?

They don't have any concrete reasons. I am not mean, not rude, not a drug addict, not a criminal, not loud, not messy, etc. My oldest sibling and spouse are the kind of people who get a kick out of isolating and criticizing one person, excluding them, making fun of them. I have seen them do this in various parts of the family - especially in his. In his family this sibling doesn't like that one, one sibling is always the odd one out, etc. I am my mom's least favorite so they get away with it.

The only real issue is that they always expected me to take the suckiest sleeping situation (think: basement bedroom with mold or living room couch) so that each of their kids can have their own bedroom. Like, they would expect to kick me out of my childhood bedroom and sleep on the couch while their elementary age kids each had their own rooms. I would stick up for myself and say a grown up should get a room and two siblings can share a room and that was seen as selfish on my part. Oh, and they resented that I would sometimes set boundaries when they tried to treat me like the household help (like they would expect me to drop everything and babysit with no notice even if I had other plans, they expected me to haul all their unnecessary beach crap out to the beach despite me being injured, etc.)

You realize this is very one sided interpretation and there is a lot more to it, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you saying you are going to pay for their OLDER siblings but not the MIDDLE sibling?

Yeah no.

Either take the two youngest and leave out the older siblings - ALL of them - or include the middle sibling.

My family did this to me once. On Mother's Day weekend. They all went to the mountains and did not invite me. Did not tell me they were going. My mom told me later my Dad wanted to invite me but my oldest sibling did not so they left me out.

It was really hurtful. I was calling them on Mother's Dat, trying to get through, to see if the flowers had arrived, etc. Finally my aunt told me where they were. Flowers died on the doorstep since they did not come back for a week.

Why didn’t they want to go with you? What were the issues?

They don't have any concrete reasons. I am not mean, not rude, not a drug addict, not a criminal, not loud, not messy, etc. My oldest sibling and spouse are the kind of people who get a kick out of isolating and criticizing one person, excluding them, making fun of them. I have seen them do this in various parts of the family - especially in his. In his family this sibling doesn't like that one, one sibling is always the odd one out, etc. I am my mom's least favorite so they get away with it.

The only real issue is that they always expected me to take the suckiest sleeping situation (think: basement bedroom with mold or living room couch) so that each of their kids can have their own bedroom. Like, they would expect to kick me out of my childhood bedroom and sleep on the couch while their elementary age kids each had their own rooms. I would stick up for myself and say a grown up should get a room and two siblings can share a room and that was seen as selfish on my part. Oh, and they resented that I would sometimes set boundaries when they tried to treat me like the household help (like they would expect me to drop everything and babysit with no notice even if I had other plans, they expected me to haul all their unnecessary beach crap out to the beach despite me being injured, etc.)

I'm sorry PP. sending hugs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It seems you are locked into a conflict spiral with one of your children, OP. Please consider what part your behavior has played. You seem to be holding a serious grudge against this young adult because he could not stick to his studies. You seem to be very preoccupied with a transactional view of your respective roles: you give him money, he does what you want. And now you've made clear to him that you despise him, well, he's making it clear to others, and perhaps you, that he's bitter about your rejection and lack of understanding. It's never going to get better unless the most mature person stops retaliating. If you both persist, you will never see each other again. Is this what you actually want?

What you should also know is that lots of young adults are not fully mature, and don't yet fully value the sacrifices their parents made for them, or struggle with accepting their parents as they are. Usually it's because despite being helpful, the parent was also controlling, or authoritarian in a way the young adult has not yet processed and accepted. It happens very often, because different generations have different ideas on parental authority and how much psychological support to offer their kids. Money is not the only support that children need.

I was such a young adult: my mother was verbally abusive. She herself does not see it in the same light, because she paid for my schooling and clothes and food, and was a mother hen, so why would I complain about her yelling and constant criticism about everything from my grades to my looks? At 30, I understood that she would never understand. At 40, I now accept she did the best she could with the upbringing and emotional bandwidth she had. We have a cordial long-distance relationship. I keep visits short, because otherwise she starts criticizing everything again. It takes A LOT of maturity for an adult to look past the hurt their loved ones cause. Your young adult does not have that maturity, but YOU are supposed to have it.

I advise you to give your child grace while they continue to mature. They are bitter and will stay bitter for a long time. But it's important to keep family ties, in my opinion (which is why I never cut off my mother entirely). I'm sure on some level it does the rest of the family good to see each other. You don't know what the future holds. You need to take the long view and the high road. I don't think you'll regret it.

This is good advice OP - and perhaps getting therapy yourself from a parenting perspective. If you haven't already. This kid is crying out for love but in a very difficult way. My son is oppositional. Been there and done that. And parenting kid with oppositional behavior takes a different kind of parenting. Not one I understood intuitively. I'm not perfect but I have some better relational skills now, that help us all get along better and help him be more successful. And as he ages, he gets better at managing his behavior too. You can't control your kid but you can control your approach to your kid.

You can set boundaries. Set expectations of being polite to one another. Straight out tell your kid you love them and want them on this trip. And that all families have complicated dynamics that can bring out hurt. And you get that. But you ask they not say mean things to others during the vacation and you have asked the others to do the same. And you set that same expectation for yourself. Bring them in on the (expectations) planning - tell them you are all transitioning to having adult kids with adult needs - but still find joy and value in getting together like this once a year. Yest you know families are complicated. Each person has unique needs. You are all figuring out boundaries as people age and become more independent. How can you all make this work? Together.

Still expect some hurt. But shape this as a complex family dynamic and not just the one child dynamic. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Anonymous]

I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

[Anonymous]

So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

Yes you can and you should.

That way when you are dying the one you neglected won’t feel obligated to drop everything to be there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I would cancel vacation instead of choosing to blacklist one of my children.

Probably this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems you are locked into a conflict spiral with one of your children, OP. Please consider what part your behavior has played. You seem to be holding a serious grudge against this young adult because he could not stick to his studies. You seem to be very preoccupied with a transactional view of your respective roles: you give him money, he does what you want. And now you've made clear to him that you despise him, well, he's making it clear to others, and perhaps you, that he's bitter about your rejection and lack of understanding. It's never going to get better unless the most mature person stops retaliating. If you both persist, you will never see each other again. Is this what you actually want?

What you should also know is that lots of young adults are not fully mature, and don't yet fully value the sacrifices their parents made for them, or struggle with accepting their parents as they are. Usually it's because despite being helpful, the parent was also controlling, or authoritarian in a way the young adult has not yet processed and accepted. It happens very often, because different generations have different ideas on parental authority and how much psychological support to offer their kids. Money is not the only support that children need.

I was such a young adult: my mother was verbally abusive. She herself does not see it in the same light, because she paid for my schooling and clothes and food, and was a mother hen, so why would I complain about her yelling and constant criticism about everything from my grades to my looks? At 30, I understood that she would never understand. At 40, I now accept she did the best she could with the upbringing and emotional bandwidth she had. We have a cordial long-distance relationship. I keep visits short, because otherwise she starts criticizing everything again. It takes A LOT of maturity for an adult to look past the hurt their loved ones cause. Your young adult does not have that maturity, but YOU are supposed to have it.

I advise you to give your child grace while they continue to mature. They are bitter and will stay bitter for a long time. But it's important to keep family ties, in my opinion (which is why I never cut off my mother entirely). I'm sure on some level it does the rest of the family good to see each other. You don't know what the future holds. You need to take the long view and the high road. I don't think you'll regret it.

This is good advice OP - and perhaps getting therapy yourself from a parenting perspective. If you haven't already. This kid is crying out for love but in a very difficult way. My son is oppositional. Been there and done that. And parenting kid with oppositional behavior takes a different kind of parenting. Not one I understood intuitively. I'm not perfect but I have some better relational skills now, that help us all get along better and help him be more successful. And as he ages, he gets better at managing his behavior too. You can't control your kid but you can control your approach to your kid.

You can set boundaries. Set expectations of being polite to one another. Straight out tell your kid you love them and want them on this trip. And that all families have complicated dynamics that can bring out hurt. And you get that. But you ask they not say mean things to others during the vacation and you have asked the others to do the same. And you set that same expectation for yourself. Bring them in on the (expectations) planning - tell them you are all transitioning to having adult kids with adult needs - but still find joy and value in getting together like this once a year. Yest you know families are complicated. Each person has unique needs. You are all figuring out boundaries as people age and become more independent. How can you all make this work? Together.

Still expect some hurt. But shape this as a complex family dynamic and not just the one child dynamic. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a particular therapist you'd recommend that was good with dealing with an oppositional child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be fair, one person with bad attitude (regardless of why they have it)can ruin a vacation for whole group and that's sad.

Agreed - one person can really make everyone walk on eggshells, and that's no fair to everyone.
I have considered just cancelling because it gives me such anxiety to deal with all this, but with the oldest three at college, if we don't go they really aren't home together for a week straight together.

[Anonymous]

My parents went on vacations with my sibling, without me, when I was a child/teen. Honestly, it was great to get a break. They viewed it as punishing me, but I didn't care. I went on a vacation with them the summer before junior HS year and it was awkward but I got some clothes from an outlet mall so it was okay.

As an adult I never went on vacations with them, and am close with that sibling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

Yes you can and you should.

That way when you are dying the one you neglected won’t feel obligated to drop everything to be there.

Doing so will only further and deepen this rift. This person will now feel isolated and rejected from their family, the last safe space they had.
Very bad advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

Yes, we have. It was somewhat helpful, though clearly didn't fix a lot of things. We're actually following a lot of that advice but kid doesn't like it and then just stops communicating (which is their go to tactic to deal with things they don't like). I'm well aware there are bigger issues and have brought a psychologist in to deal with that. The kid is more than just "annoying" when they purposefully upset other family members. As a parent, I do believe I have a responsibility to my other children also to not force them to constantly deal with an oppositional sibling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you’ve sent this kid to therapists, but have you considered family therapy. It sounds like there’s a lot more going on here than just the kid having issues.

And listen, you can’t go on vacation and pay for the other kids and just ignore the middle kid because they are annoying and not doing what you want. That’s not the way parenting works

Yes you can and you should.

That way when you are dying the one you neglected won’t feel obligated to drop everything to be there.

Doing so will only further and deepen this rift. This person will now feel isolated and rejected from their family, the last safe space they had.
Very bad advice.

I'm pretty sure that was said sarcastically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

[Anonymous]

I have a sibling like this and we just don't include her. I don't consider them family vacations though (your family when you get married is your husband and kids, not grandparents or siblings). They're my family's vacation that we take with grandparents. DH and I pay for our family and we split the cabin/airbnb with my parents, so it's not like we're getting something my sibling doesn't.

My sibling doesn't have much vacation time (she likes to sleep in and takes annual leave often to do that) so can't often travel with us anyways. They don't like us and make it miserable, but we're extra nice when she does join.