Including young adult not on good terms with in family vacation

[Anonymous]

Invite them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

[Anonymous]

Teens and early 20's are tough for kids with defiance disorders, more so if there are some religious, cultural and academic guidelines where they have a different opinion. They take it as parents being unreasonable and parents take it as kids disrespecting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

"Blame the mom" is bad, but I feel like there isn't enough info to know if this child has legitimate reasons to feel awful here. Were they offered the opportunities for another educational path? Where do they live? It seems so lonely and sad to be the one sibling in the family not in college, not being financially helped. Are they not pursuing a different education precisely because they were cut off?

[Anonymous]

"Blame the mom!" is the most popular solution because that's how basic therapists bond with their patients. They need a bad guy so patient doesn't have to take responsibility for any of their own behavior or try to have need to understand effecting circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For people saying OP must include the adult child, at what point do you think OP is off the hook for paying for an adult child's vacation? My parents stopped paying for me after I finished college, which seems reasonable. They also took my younger siblings on spring break trips when I was in college, which I couldn't attend because our spring breaks didn't align. This also seems reasonable.

I'm not sure -- my mom and stepdad took his kids on expensive skiing vacations every year until my stepdad died, including the kids' spouses and one of them had 4 kids and they were included.

[Anonymous]

Main reason is mom being only responsible person in children's lives while it used to take a village to raise a child. Now you are lucky if father is involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe your parenting is the problem. Don't include them. Just don’t expect a relationship if they are not family.

This. Exclude them from the family, don't expect them to be family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Yes, you can. You can change it for the worse with this exclusion bs you are contemplating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Therapists can't do anything if there is actually a psychiatric and/or learning disorders that are undiagnosed and untreated, OP. Did you have them evaluated at some point as a child? It's very common for people with ADHD, anxiety, depression, or for example dyslexia, to feel "less than". I have a friend couple who ignored all the warnings from teachers about their kid's reading issues, and then were surprised when at 16, she asked for an evaluation herself. It turns out she has dyslexia and ADHD. She is not going to college. It's too late to turn things around. You can bet they're kicking themselves.

To your other point about their sibling relationships, perhaps you can survey your kids and relatives who will be attending and ask whether it's OK that this young person come.

Yep. I am guessing learning disability/psychiatric needs/neurodivergence that went unsupported.

I failed out of college and had a very strained relationship with my family and they went on vacation (the Bahamas) without me. It was the final straw for me. It took me years, but I figured out my own needs, and eventually graduated from not only college but law school. To this day I have anger (I'd even say rage) issues about the lack of support (including that Bahamas trip) and resent how successful I could have been earlier if I'd just had the support I needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You sound like a awful parent who created a scapegoat and then wonders why they feel alienated.

You don't like them, they know. They want lobe and acceptance more than a vacation. If you can't give then what they need stop stringing them along and don't invite them. They hold hope that you will somehow change but emotionally they protect themselves "I'm only here for the gifts" translates to "I'm hoping to have some connection and feel loved and validated by my family". I know you cannot hear the translation because you created the toxic dynamic.

+100

This has scapegoating written all over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems you are locked into a conflict spiral with one of your children, OP. Please consider what part your behavior has played. You seem to be holding a serious grudge against this young adult because he could not stick to his studies. You seem to be very preoccupied with a transactional view of your respective roles: you give him money, he does what you want. And now you've made clear to him that you despise him, well, he's making it clear to others, and perhaps you, that he's bitter about your rejection and lack of understanding. It's never going to get better unless the most mature person stops retaliating. If you both persist, you will never see each other again. Is this what you actually want?

What you should also know is that lots of young adults are not fully mature, and don't yet fully value the sacrifices their parents made for them, or struggle with accepting their parents as they are. Usually it's because despite being helpful, the parent was also controlling, or authoritarian in a way the young adult has not yet processed and accepted. It happens very often, because different generations have different ideas on parental authority and how much psychological support to offer their kids. Money is not the only support that children need.

I was such a young adult: my mother was verbally abusive. She herself does not see it in the same light, because she paid for my schooling and clothes and food, and was a mother hen, so why would I complain about her yelling and constant criticism about everything from my grades to my looks? At 30, I understood that she would never understand. At 40, I now accept she did the best she could with the upbringing and emotional bandwidth she had. We have a cordial long-distance relationship. I keep visits short, because otherwise she starts criticizing everything again. It takes A LOT of maturity for an adult to look past the hurt their loved ones cause. Your young adult does not have that maturity, but YOU are supposed to have it.

I advise you to give your child grace while they continue to mature. They are bitter and will stay bitter for a long time. But it's important to keep family ties, in my opinion (which is why I never cut off my mother entirely). I'm sure on some level it does the rest of the family good to see each other. You don't know what the future holds. You need to take the long view and the high road. I don't think you'll regret it.

This is good advice OP - and perhaps getting therapy yourself from a parenting perspective. If you haven't already. This kid is crying out for love but in a very difficult way. My son is oppositional. Been there and done that. And parenting kid with oppositional behavior takes a different kind of parenting. Not one I understood intuitively. I'm not perfect but I have some better relational skills now, that help us all get along better and help him be more successful. And as he ages, he gets better at managing his behavior too. You can't control your kid but you can control your approach to your kid.

You can set boundaries. Set expectations of being polite to one another. Straight out tell your kid you love them and want them on this trip. And that all families have complicated dynamics that can bring out hurt. And you get that. But you ask they not say mean things to others during the vacation and you have asked the others to do the same. And you set that same expectation for yourself. Bring them in on the (expectations) planning - tell them you are all transitioning to having adult kids with adult needs - but still find joy and value in getting together like this once a year. Yest you know families are complicated. Each person has unique needs. You are all figuring out boundaries as people age and become more independent. How can you all make this work? Together.

Still expect some hurt. But shape this as a complex family dynamic and not just the one child dynamic. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Do you have a particular therapist you'd recommend that was good with dealing with an oppositional child?

Lol, I was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder as a teen. Yes -- I was oppositional and defiant. Because I had been neglected and horribly abused. That is the case with most ODD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

"Blame the mom!" is the most popular solution because that's how basic therapists bond with their patients. They need a bad guy so patient doesn't have to take responsibility for any of their own behavior or try to have need to understand effecting circumstances.

I see this a lot with a friend who goes to therapy. The therapist only hears what the friend is telling them which of course sounds like the friend is not at all at fault. Too bad they can't see the whole situation and what friend misses seeing and how she contributed to family drama. If only therapist could take a step back and see it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Therapists can't do anything if there is actually a psychiatric and/or learning disorders that are undiagnosed and untreated, OP. Did you have them evaluated at some point as a child? It's very common for people with ADHD, anxiety, depression, or for example dyslexia, to feel "less than". I have a friend couple who ignored all the warnings from teachers about their kid's reading issues, and then were surprised when at 16, she asked for an evaluation herself. It turns out she has dyslexia and ADHD. She is not going to college. It's too late to turn things around. You can bet they're kicking themselves.

To your other point about their sibling relationships, perhaps you can survey your kids and relatives who will be attending and ask whether it's OK that this young person come.

Yep. I am guessing learning disability/psychiatric needs/neurodivergence that went unsupported.

I failed out of college and had a very strained relationship with my family and they went on vacation (the Bahamas) without me. It was the final straw for me. It took me years, but I figured out my own needs, and eventually graduated from not only college but law school. To this day I have anger (I'd even say rage) issues about the lack of support (including that Bahamas trip) and resent how successful I could have been earlier if I'd just had the support I needed.

If you're out of law school already, it seems like this has been a few years. Testing and support for being neurodivergent wasn't nearly as widespread as it is now. You don't give some grace that it wasn't readily available?