Spin off: Young Marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

Most people aren’t long time backpacking or doing the peace corps regardless of when or if they marry. Never had the desire to and don’t regret not doing it, either.

The real barrier to travel is having kids, not getting married. As long as you don't have kids, married couples can live in much the same way as they did before they were married. Life doesn't really have to change until there is a baby.

That's not true though. The piece about kids is, but the part about it being the same as single life or solo traveling etc isn't true, being married forces you to consider someone elseit changes things, that's not a bad thing. Doesn't mean by marrying young you won't have a geat life or many adventures but they are different from what you would have had as a single woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

Most people aren’t long time backpacking or doing the peace corps regardless of when or if they marry. Never had the desire to and don’t regret not doing it, either.

The real barrier to travel is having kids, not getting married. As long as you don't have kids, married couples can live in much the same way as they did before they were married. Life doesn't really have to change until there is a baby.

No they can’t because now all decisions need to have input from both people.

The vast, vast majority of people are already getting input from their bf/gf and then their fiance well before they get married. If they don't like that input and it doesn't match their views, then the shouldn't get married. The act of getting married has less of an impact than being in a relationship.

That's also only partially true. There are legal and social implications of being married that don't exist in a bf/gf relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is men? Most women I know would have been happy to settle down earlier, but the men were chasing tail and unwilling to commit. The exceptions being Southern, Midwestern, or religious men, many of whom were locked up by college graduation.

From the south and most college guys I knew did not want to commit, also too busy sowing wild oats, etc etc. only a few married right after college.

Met my dh and married a couple of years later at 28, but it was apparently already too late for me to have kids. I would have happily married my college boyfriend but "he didn't want to get married until after he was 35" (back in the 90s) so I ended it. Just as well, as we would have probably been divorced eventually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

Most people aren’t long time backpacking or doing the peace corps regardless of when or if they marry. Never had the desire to and don’t regret not doing it, either.

The real barrier to travel is having kids, not getting married. As long as you don't have kids, married couples can live in much the same way as they did before they were married. Life doesn't really have to change until there is a baby.

It depends. I moved locations 4 times in my 20s for jobs including an international expat posting.

Guess it would have been fine if I wanted a SAH spouse which I didn’t, who just moved when I wanted.

One posting was offered on a Monday and I was on a plane by Saturday.

All these things are hard to take advantage if you are concerned about a spouse.

I don’t think people are talking about vacation travel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

Only you know how happy you are. I know based on my own personality that i would be ruminating over roads not travelled for the rest of my life. Maybe less at some times, but a lot at others. I think most people do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

Most people aren’t long time backpacking or doing the peace corps regardless of when or if they marry. Never had the desire to and don’t regret not doing it, either.

The real barrier to travel is having kids, not getting married. As long as you don't have kids, married couples can live in much the same way as they did before they were married. Life doesn't really have to change until there is a baby.

No they can’t because now all decisions need to have input from both people.

The vast, vast majority of people are already getting input from their bf/gf and then their fiance well before they get married. If they don't like that input and it doesn't match their views, then the shouldn't get married. The act of getting married has less of an impact than being in a relationship.

So you agree that single travel is not at all like married travel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

Most people aren’t long time backpacking or doing the peace corps regardless of when or if they marry. Never had the desire to and don’t regret not doing it, either.

The real barrier to travel is having kids, not getting married. As long as you don't have kids, married couples can live in much the same way as they did before they were married. Life doesn't really have to change until there is a baby.

It depends. I moved locations 4 times in my 20s for jobs including an international expat posting.

Guess it would have been fine if I wanted a SAH spouse which I didn’t, who just moved when I wanted.

One posting was offered on a Monday and I was on a plane by Saturday.

All these things are hard to take advantage if you are concerned about a spouse.

I don’t think people are talking about vacation travel.

So you prioritized your career over a family in your 20s. Some people prioritize family over career. Different strokes for for different folks.

(And many people are absolutely talking about vacation travel, even the Peace Corps which is essentially a vacation for rich liberal hipsters.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

You are proving the point though. There IS a biological drive to procreate. And what do women do in those situations, if they decide to take the plunge?

There is an ideal situation but it’s still hard! Some women are happy without kids but not all. And the point of this post is what do women do in that instance. It’s good to be sometime young to have kids but not too young. And even then so many things go haywire.

Personally I got a degree and a mini career and travelled. Had my two kids but even still wish I would have done more. I had a drive to have kids. So honestly there is no perfect answer. We should be telling women what the ideal is for that situation and it seems we don’t have an answer in our society. Career over family isn’t the answer if you want kids. It’s not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

You are proving the point though. There IS a biological drive to procreate. And what do women do in those situations, if they decide to take the plunge?

There is an ideal situation but it’s still hard! Some women are happy without kids but not all. And the point of this post is what do women do in that instance. It’s good to be sometime young to have kids but not too young. And even then so many things go haywire.

Personally I got a degree and a mini career and travelled. Had my two kids but even still wish I would have done more. I had a drive to have kids. So honestly there is no perfect answer. We should be telling women what the ideal is for that situation and it seems we don’t have an answer in our society. Career over family isn’t the answer if you want kids. It’s not.

I think the actual “perfect answer” is to find an actual decent man who is worth having a family with. It doesn’t matter what the age is- 22, 30, 40, but once you find the guy you need to go for it because there apparently just aren’t that many decent men around. This is really tricky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

No one's making you have children. If you can't do it ethically and in a socially responsible way, maybe don't have them?

Oh so now the only feminist and socially and ethical choice is to work a ton and have no children at all. And therefore, it’s fairly pointless to be married because let’s face it, you’ll end up in this forum crying about being cheated on or doing the cheating yourself eventually.

Wow, sounds like such an array of choices.

Wow, huge, irrelevant leaps from being childfree to being cheated on. I hope your children have a more logical mind than you do.

Is it absolutely NOT a leap to go from working 80 hours a week as a dual married couple and having your relationship (if you even have time for one at that point) completely fall apart in a variety of ways. Most commonly by cheating. Or maybe you are new to touring this forum?

Most people are not cheaters. You have a warped perspective from spending far too much time on here. Maybe you should get a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

You are proving the point though. There IS a biological drive to procreate. And what do women do in those situations, if they decide to take the plunge?

There is an ideal situation but it’s still hard! Some women are happy without kids but not all. And the point of this post is what do women do in that instance. It’s good to be sometime young to have kids but not too young. And even then so many things go haywire.

Personally I got a degree and a mini career and travelled. Had my two kids but even still wish I would have done more. I had a drive to have kids. So honestly there is no perfect answer. We should be telling women what the ideal is for that situation and it seems we don’t have an answer in our society. Career over family isn’t the answer if you want kids. It’s not.

I think the actual “perfect answer” is to find an actual decent man who is worth having a family with. It doesn’t matter what the age is- 22, 30, 40, but once you find the guy you need to go for it because there apparently just aren’t that many decent men around. This is really tricky.

I’m the middle aged childless dog lady.

I absolutely agree I’m proving the point. And I want to reiterate that I had a burning desire for kids and only my abusive childhood kept me from succumbing to a very strong biological urge.

And as to the next poster’s point - yes it would be nice if there was a way to tell who the nice guys are and snatch them up whenever we can, but we have countless threads here about nice guys who turned out to be something else when the reality of a wife and children and the demands of family life come to bear.

Men are always a crap shoot at some level, the folks who crow in posts here about how they picked more wisely are just a) lucky or b) the mask hasn’t yet slipped. I rolled the dice several times with men when it was only me at stake, and every time I balked when pink flags were raised - not interested in sticking around for red flags.

I guess it’s possible that no matter the strength of my biological drive I was never going to have kids. What I saw and experienced growing up was a real disincentive to want to roll the dice on behalf of an innocent child.

Believe me I’ve spent a lot of hours in this life lamenting the state of human coupling and the conditions in which most kids grow. I grieve for the kind of family I wanted and which I think is very rare. I’m just more risk averse than many others. I’m not intending to be smug when I say what I say - just that I think there is a lot of peace for people like me in choosing a single childless life and I think a lot of other people like me find peace in it as well and that leads to a contentment. I’m not in a prison and I’ve not inflicted pain on anyone who didn’t have a choice. That’s a good place to be most days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

If women don’t want children this is all true. But the majority of women will bat children at some point. And children are better raised married in a two parent household. And that’s our problem as women.

I don't think the majority of women want children. I think the majority y of women are conditioned to believe that's what they want. As for 2 parents and married well that largely depends on the parents and the culture the children are being raised in.

So your argument is that there is no biological urge to procreate and continue the survival of the human race. Sure.

Agreed. I’m mid 50s now and more content every day with my childlessness - but I had a raging desire for a child from puberty onward until the change of life.

The desire did not outweigh my fear of bringing a child into the world to have a bad father - I’d had one myself and was determined not to subject another child to such a childhood. If I’d met a man who was really good father material I’d have happily had kids.

But the change of life revealed to me how much of it is just biology. Now that the biological drive is shut off, my rational self is very grateful for the tens of thousands of hours I didn’t spend housekeeping child caring husband wrangling etc.

I earned multiple degrees and pursued multiple career paths, enjoyed successes and failures alike, followed my dreams and sometimes my whims and never had to consult with anyone or worry about the impact on anyone other than me. I know I’m supposed to be miserable and lonely but I’m not - it’s okay if you want to tell yourself I am though. Whatever makes your own burdens easier to bear.

You are proving the point though. There IS a biological drive to procreate. And what do women do in those situations, if they decide to take the plunge?

There is an ideal situation but it’s still hard! Some women are happy without kids but not all. And the point of this post is what do women do in that instance. It’s good to be sometime young to have kids but not too young. And even then so many things go haywire.

Personally I got a degree and a mini career and travelled. Had my two kids but even still wish I would have done more. I had a drive to have kids. So honestly there is no perfect answer. We should be telling women what the ideal is for that situation and it seems we don’t have an answer in our society. Career over family isn’t the answer if you want kids. It’s not.

I think the actual “perfect answer” is to find an actual decent man who is worth having a family with. It doesn’t matter what the age is- 22, 30, 40, but once you find the guy you need to go for it because there apparently just aren’t that many decent men around. This is really tricky.

I’m the middle aged childless dog lady.

I absolutely agree I’m proving the point. And I want to reiterate that I had a burning desire for kids and only my abusive childhood kept me from succumbing to a very strong biological urge.

And as to the next poster’s point - yes it would be nice if there was a way to tell who the nice guys are and snatch them up whenever we can, but we have countless threads here about nice guys who turned out to be something else when the reality of a wife and children and the demands of family life come to bear.

Men are always a crap shoot at some level, the folks who crow in posts here about how they picked more wisely are just a) lucky or b) the mask hasn’t yet slipped. I rolled the dice several times with men when it was only me at stake, and every time I balked when pink flags were raised - not interested in sticking around for red flags.

I guess it’s possible that no matter the strength of my biological drive I was never going to have kids. What I saw and experienced growing up was a real disincentive to want to roll the dice on behalf of an innocent child.

Believe me I’ve spent a lot of hours in this life lamenting the state of human coupling and the conditions in which most kids grow. I grieve for the kind of family I wanted and which I think is very rare. I’m just more risk averse than many others. I’m not intending to be smug when I say what I say - just that I think there is a lot of peace for people like me in choosing a single childless life and I think a lot of other people like me find peace in it as well and that leads to a contentment. I’m not in a prison and I’ve not inflicted pain on anyone who didn’t have a choice. That’s a good place to be most days.

Poster you are responding to. The bolded is so, so true.

I think your best clue is the family of origin. DH has ended up much like his father for better and worse. Fortunately his parents had a fairly egalitarian marriage, no abuse, no addiction. I think people who come from somewhat healthy families have the best blueprint with how to deal with adversity and just, regular life. I say that as someone from a pretty dysfunctional background.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not to say that different people don't have different experiences, but the OP doesn't reflect my experience at all. I'm from the midwest, but went to college in California and have lived on one coast or the other my entire adult life. I'm in my mid-40s now.

Almost all of my women friends (~80-90%, I would guess) are married with kids. Almost all of us got married and had kids in our 30s. And almost all of us have advanced degrees, most of us have one or more degrees from an elite (i.e. T20) school. These are people living in different places across the country, but mostly big metro areas that people are saying are hostile to families (DC, SF, NYC, Seattle, etc).

I never had the sense that marriage and kids were discouraged or looked down upon. I wouldn't say were "dating to get married" in our 20s, but marriage was not anathema.

I guess the point of this post is to ask whether it really is common for people to experience marriage being discouraged and frowned upon. It doesn't match mine at all, so asking.

Yeah, I agree. I’m from the same general area, but grew up and went to college in NYC. I’m a little younger in my late 30s and pretty much all my friends from high school and college are either recently married with kids (like me) or getting married, pregnant, etc. I never felt like it was discouraged and there were a few people in my circle who got married mid- to late- 20s and had kids soon after and we were all very excited for them and went to their weddings and baby showers. I really don’t feel like weddings and babies were seen as horrible in any way, just something that we didn’t have to do right away unless we found the right person and wanted to.