Spin off: Young Marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

Was it maturity, or was it that I was investing in my career? Because now I have a successful career with flexible hours and a large retirement account. I don’t see how I could have spent two years working in London and worked long hours while married. For me, getting married young would have meant putting all my eggs in one basket.

I am from an area where women marry young and outside of one doctor, I don’t know any of the women who still have successful careers. They have all either stayed home or had middling careers since they graduated college. Because they married young and their life became about supporting their husband in various ways instead of focusing on their own life.

It seems like the women I grew up with didn’t realize it’s a big world and they could forge their own path. They thought their only option was to hitch their wagon to a man.

[Anonymous]

I’m middle aged and among my middle aged married friends and family are both women who pursued college education and women who didn’t, women who married and had kids in their early twenties and women who waited until their thirties and a few who struggled with fertility and didn’t become mothers until early forties.

There is no question that the women who married younger and didn’t pursue education were more dependent on the marriage even when it was toxic and conditions existed which likely should have led to divorce. Those women were much less able to envision their lives without the crutch of marriage, no matter how dysfunctional. I don’t see that their lives were benefited greatly by early marriage and motherhood.

I’ve been caring for homebound elders for several years now, many of them at end of life. I’ve found that people will often confess their life regrets more easily to a new friend and caregiver than to family members who they don’t wish to hurt with expression of their regrets. Most every elder woman I’ve cared for has lamented early and decades long marriages which consumed their whole lives and limited their opportunities to stretch their wings and become fully themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

None of this held true for us. We got our graduate educations, traveled and had a wonderful network of friends…while together. We didn’t purchase real estate until a decade had passed, found jobs on the same city without a problem.

Finding each other and committing early doesn’t prevent these things, you do them together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Sure it is. It values the contribution of childcare that another couple would choose to pay for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ultimately, the human experience is varied. You can take any path and find people who made it through with flying colors and others that fell along the way.

We married at 23, just celebrated 20 years with 3 kids ranging from 7 to 14. A little luck along the way, with one spouse as SAH for past 12 years, and things have been great. Not perfect, but wouldn’t change a thing other than perhaps having one or two more kids.

Met at school in Texas where this path was more common for millennials. It has worked for us, our values and our personalities, doesn’t mean it would have worked for others.

Count your blessed and lucky stars and say your prayers every night. You are among the chosen few to be blessed with the perfect life path for modern middle class America.

What sets you apart for the others is your clear understanding that others are less fortunate than you. And that you have the empathy to be so understanding that the human experience is harder for others less fortunate than yourself. Especially those with other values and personalities. The sun has shone upon you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

Was it maturity, or was it that I was investing in my career? Because now I have a successful career with flexible hours and a large retirement account. I don’t see how I could have spent two years working in London and worked long hours while married. For me, getting married young would have meant putting all my eggs in one basket.

I am from an area where women marry young and outside of one doctor, I don’t know any of the women who still have successful careers. They have all either stayed home or had middling careers since they graduated college. Because they married young and their life became about supporting their husband in various ways instead of focusing on their own life.

It seems like the women I grew up with didn’t realize it’s a big world and they could forge their own path. They thought their only option was to hitch their wagon to a man.

One of the most successful women I know got pregnant our senior year of college. She married the summer before medical school and is a happily married doctor decades later.

I know another pediatrician mom of four who married at 28.

Multiple friends of ours married right out of law school and are working parents and together still today. Again, married mid 20s.

It’s odd to me that you don’t know any women with careers who married in their 20s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m middle aged and among my middle aged married friends and family are both women who pursued college education and women who didn’t, women who married and had kids in their early twenties and women who waited until their thirties and a few who struggled with fertility and didn’t become mothers until early forties.

There is no question that the women who married younger and didn’t pursue education were more dependent on the marriage even when it was toxic and conditions existed which likely should have led to divorce. Those women were much less able to envision their lives without the crutch of marriage, no matter how dysfunctional. I don’t see that their lives were benefited greatly by early marriage and motherhood.

I’ve been caring for homebound elders for several years now, many of them at end of life. I’ve found that people will often confess their life regrets more easily to a new friend and caregiver than to family members who they don’t wish to hurt with expression of their regrets. Most every elder woman I’ve cared for has lamented early and decades long marriages which consumed their whole lives and limited their opportunities to stretch their wings and become fully themselves.

You can’t regret what you have. If those elderly people had made a choice to sacrifice their childbearing years for their career or to travel, something pretty much unheard of during their era, you could easily have been hearing some of the life regrets we see on these boards - women who find themselves struggling to have kids because they waited too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

Was it maturity, or was it that I was investing in my career? Because now I have a successful career with flexible hours and a large retirement account. I don’t see how I could have spent two years working in London and worked long hours while married. For me, getting married young would have meant putting all my eggs in one basket.

I am from an area where women marry young and outside of one doctor, I don’t know any of the women who still have successful careers. They have all either stayed home or had middling careers since they graduated college. Because they married young and their life became about supporting their husband in various ways instead of focusing on their own life.

It seems like the women I grew up with didn’t realize it’s a big world and they could forge their own path. They thought their only option was to hitch their wagon to a man.

You can’t imagine your husband moving to London with you for two years? You can’t imagine working long hours while married? (I can - it means coming home to the chores and cooking done so less stress overall).

Sounds like you didn’t have anyone lined up worth marrying when you were young, which is a completely different discussion, obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t want to hijack the early 20s marriage trend thread but as someone who met my husband at 30 and was married with a baby by 34, I WISH we’d met 10 years sooner.

Raised in a major liberal city on a coast and ended up in the Midwest and I feel like so much of what my generation- millennial - was sold in that environment is absolute BS. As a girl in that environment I was raised to be independent and dating for marriage was not culturally cool. Friends all prioritized having a good time and while people did pursue education and careers, the idea that marriage was something to plan for and intentionally seek out was looked down upon. Wanting to be a SAHM was seen as foolish and waste of education and careers.

And FWIW I come from a 2-parent still married household, so had a solid example.

When I moved to where I’m at now, it was culturally VERY different and wanting to be a wife and mother was seen as totally acceptable and normal.

When I talk to my friends - late 30s/mid 40s- many are now realizing that they may have missed their window for marriage that includes bio kids…or they’re rushing to find ANY guy and it’s slim pickings. This is across all racial and social groups. Women that are beautiful and accomplished are realizing that the “good guys” - kind, considerate, thoughtful- are paired off or returning to availability after marriage and divorce, which brings it’s own sets of issues.

It makes me feel like we were sold a bad bill of goods. Go to college have a career, live life independently, date around, and then eventually find a man but don’t rush, don’t make being a wife and mom your whole personality. Don’t settle down too young because you’ll miss out on having fun.

Except…there’s nothing that I did in my 20s that was worth doing that I wouldn’t have had a good time with, with my DH. I was complete and happy before I met my DH, but life with my family is the best thing I could have ever done.

I was a homeowner and business owner before marriage, I’d traveled, so it’s not like my life was boring or sad…but I feel like there is definitely a narrative in progressive/liberal areas that having a family somehow takes away from all of that. Meanwhile being married and a mom has created a foundation/focus that I definitely didn’t have before. Even as a type A overachiever.

Because of when I met DH we’re likely one and done on the kids front, which I’m ok with I only really wanted one, but do wish we’d had more time together as a couple before becoming parents…because there are some things that only make sense to do when you’re in your 20s before you’re a parent.

Meanwhile a bunch of my friends will probably never end up with marriages and families they want. Or will settle for situations that they don’t want to become moms.

I’m still a progressive, absolutely support women creating the lives they want for themselves whether that includes marriage and kids or not. Young women should absolutely secure solid education, this isn’t some trad wife propaganda, and also I wish there was more balance in the discussions that are being had about trade offs. Time and fertility are finite resources.

This sounds like a post written by a man lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now that I’m in my 40s I have the opposite take.

I think marriage and kids is mostly a scam to convince women to provide unpaid labor.

My life would have been better staying single and keeping my high earning job. I’ve sacrificed my body, sanity, career and income for kids and a husband. Not worth it.

When women actually earn money and can live independently they don’t want to get married.

I am a man and I agree with you. As a man though I also see marriage is a bad deal for us as well. I was married to a woman who did nothing for the the relationship. She didn't help raise the kids. She didn't help keep the house cleaned..she didn't help with cooking. She didn't want to take the kids to their activities. She didn't want to go to parents teachers conferences. She didn't want to take the kids to the doctors....I did all. I know it's rare for men to do it all but there are more and more of us out there in this situation.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think this “bill of goods” is a real thing that impacts women’s choices. So much depends upon when you meet your person. If anything, the “you can have it all” outlook is more impactful.

I grew up in a major metropolitan area, went to college in NYC, had many highly-educated friends with big career ambitions and it all boiled down to when we met our life partners. Most us were dating for marriage, but several of us didn’t meet our husbands until 28-34.

I will say that the women I met in my mom’s group in MoCo after my oldest was born were younger than my friends in NYC, who started having kids a bit later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

Was it maturity, or was it that I was investing in my career? Because now I have a successful career with flexible hours and a large retirement account. I don’t see how I could have spent two years working in London and worked long hours while married. For me, getting married young would have meant putting all my eggs in one basket.

I am from an area where women marry young and outside of one doctor, I don’t know any of the women who still have successful careers. They have all either stayed home or had middling careers since they graduated college. Because they married young and their life became about supporting their husband in various ways instead of focusing on their own life.

It seems like the women I grew up with didn’t realize it’s a big world and they could forge their own path. They thought their only option was to hitch their wagon to a man.

You can’t imagine your husband moving to London with you for two years? You can’t imagine working long hours while married? (I can - it means coming home to the chores and cooking done so less stress overall).

Sounds like you didn’t have anyone lined up worth marrying when you were young, which is a completely different discussion, obviously.

No, I can’t. He has his own career and he couldn’t have worked in London.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m middle aged and among my middle aged married friends and family are both women who pursued college education and women who didn’t, women who married and had kids in their early twenties and women who waited until their thirties and a few who struggled with fertility and didn’t become mothers until early forties.

There is no question that the women who married younger and didn’t pursue education were more dependent on the marriage even when it was toxic and conditions existed which likely should have led to divorce. Those women were much less able to envision their lives without the crutch of marriage, no matter how dysfunctional. I don’t see that their lives were benefited greatly by early marriage and motherhood.

I’ve been caring for homebound elders for several years now, many of them at end of life. I’ve found that people will often confess their life regrets more easily to a new friend and caregiver than to family members who they don’t wish to hurt with expression of their regrets. Most every elder woman I’ve cared for has lamented early and decades long marriages which consumed their whole lives and limited their opportunities to stretch their wings and become fully themselves.

This is so obvious. There are exceptions. There are some women who win the jackpot and have successful careers and get married at 25.

But statistically the younger you marry the more you limit yourself professionally and financially.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don’t want to hijack the early 20s marriage trend thread but as someone who met my husband at 30 and was married with a baby by 34, I WISH we’d met 10 years sooner.

But the thing is is you WOULDN'T have met him at 20yo. He wouldn't have been who he was at 30 and ready to settle down, etc. You would be with someone else if you really wanted to marry young.

That's why I always think it's funny to idealize meeting your spouse at a younger age. You would have met, being different people at 20 than 30, and may have dated but probably would have broken up for whatever reason.

Many of the qualities he had at 30 that made him a good partner he wouldn't have developed by 20 and the same is true for you. Maybe you could say you wished that at 20yo you wish that you'd met your