Spin off: Young Marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

I lived and worked abroad for two three-months stints and backpacked for the equivalent of ~15 months over about 6 trips and several years, all while in a relationship with my now husband. I traveled a ton in my 20s.

You think your average married 20 something is living and working abroad on her own? You think this is common?

What’s common is a woman starting a family young and quitting her job since her earnings as a 26 year old won’t even cover daycare. Let alone the fact she only receives 6 weeks of leave and her employer couldn’t care less since she has limited experience.

I grew up in a relatively affluent community where women marry young and the difference was astounding.

Women marry young when they need a meal ticket.

Let's be honest. Those women were never going to join the Peace Corps or spend months backpacking around developing countries, even if they didn't get married. I got married, went to law school, and then spent 6 weeks backpacking with my husband in rural India as my post-bar trip. It's because that's part of my interests and ambition. The marriage part didn't change me, nor did it change them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

I lived and worked abroad for two three-months stints and backpacked for the equivalent of ~15 months over about 6 trips and several years, all while in a relationship with my now husband. I traveled a ton in my 20s.

You think your average married 20 something is living and working abroad on her own? You think this is common?

What’s common is a woman starting a family young and quitting her job since her earnings as a 26 year old won’t even cover daycare. Let alone the fact she only receives 6 weeks of leave and her employer couldn’t care less since she has limited experience.

I grew up in a relatively affluent community where women marry young and the difference was astounding.

Women marry young when they need a meal ticket.

Do you think your average *unmarried* 20 something is working abroad and going on long-term backpacking trips of self-discovery?

Get real. This whole argument is stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:meh. I met my DH when I was 30 and he 36. We had our first when I was 34, second at almost 38. They are teens now, one in college.

Neither DH nor I were ready to be married or have kids in our 20s.

I have told my kids (DS and DD) to not get married too early, or at the least, don't have kids too early. Live your life and have a career first, including building up your finances. Once kids come, your life as you know it is over.

The women on here suggesting getting married at 25 simply don’t know any better. They missed out on their 20s.

Anyone who wants their daughter to get married at 25 and have kids is insane. You don’t want your daughter to get married and have kids at 25 for the same reasons you don’t want her to do so during high school.

My friends and I who got married in our mid/late 20s certainly limited our choices. We’ve never traveled anywhere and obviously dropped everything to have babies right away. None of us have ever made partner, or been promoted to principal or managing director.

If it helps you justify your path in life, sure, whatever it takes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

Brutal. This is absolutely an uncomfortable truth.

Feminist choices of course! But only for those of a certain class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:meh. I met my DH when I was 30 and he 36. We had our first when I was 34, second at almost 38. They are teens now, one in college.

Neither DH nor I were ready to be married or have kids in our 20s.

I have told my kids (DS and DD) to not get married too early, or at the least, don't have kids too early. Live your life and have a career first, including building up your finances. Once kids come, your life as you know it is over.

The women on here suggesting getting married at 25 simply don’t know any better. They missed out on their 20s.

Anyone who wants their daughter to get married at 25 and have kids is insane. You don’t want your daughter to get married and have kids at 25 for the same reasons you don’t want her to do so during high school.

My friends and I who got married in our mid/late 20s certainly limited our choices. We’ve never traveled anywhere and obviously dropped everything to have babies right away. None of us have ever made partner, or been promoted to principal or managing director.

If it helps you justify your path in life, sure, whatever it takes.

It’s not impossible, but the boldest is less likely.

[Anonymous]

I got married at 22 and had my first at 23. It’s too young because now in my 40s I wished I had waited and dated more men and lived more. I went from my parents home, to
College, to married and never got to just be on my own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to feel like you, when the marriage was going well.

15 years into our relationship my DH had a mental breakdown and became very volatile, angry, and abusive. Tried a bunch of therapy and it didn’t work. Divorce. Due to having built my career beforehand, I was able to buy him out of the house and I know who I am without the relationship because we married when I was 30 and not 20.

I am glad I spent that time in investing in myself. My education gave me a career and the means to make a home independently of my marriage. My travel and time with friends let me build up a network that has been rock solid and there for me through this whole ordeal. And I know I was fine and happy before this and will be fine and happy now. If I had done the traditional route I would’ve been screwed.

I met my husband at 21. Failing to understand why you think that precludes a woman from an education, career, travel or building up friend networks, all of which I have. It’s this mentality that a partnership prevents these dimensions of life that is holding young women back.

Because you’re less mobile when you’re married since you can’t live in two different place and often, one spouse’s job takes precedent. Similar story with social life. You have to sacrifice where you travel to since now you have to compromise with a spouse. You often end up purchasing real estate, which may be a good thing financially, but it takes priority over travel and a social life.

Women provide a lot of unpaid labor for men and when you get married most women take on more unpaid labor. As a result there is less time for travel, education, socializing etc.

Anecdotally, life changed for my friends who married young. They are relatively educated but once they got married everything seemed to change and it became about playing house.

Making sacrifices and compromises is just part of being inna relationship. It’s not a punishment or a setback.

Honestly, and there is no way to say this without sounding snarky, but I think the fundamental disconnect between women who think marrying young is good (or even just fine) and those who think it’s some life-ruining mistake is maturity. You may have not been mature enough to commit to something or someone beyond your own immediate desires when you were early to mid 20s, and that’s okay. It makes sense for you to wait to get married. Other people don’t see life that way, and for them it makes sense to marry when you know you’re with someone you want to be married to.

But it takes maturity to know you’re not mature enough to commit, so….

Sure, maturity exists on a spectrum I suppose. Some young people who get married are immature, some older people who get married are immature.

My post is more a reaction to the reasons being offered up here: but OMG what about tRaVeL?! For example.

The tRaVeL you mention -- for me -- isn't some weekend trips to the Bahamas or an all inclusive in Tulum. The kind of travel that shaped me and my friends is the kind that pushes personal comfort zones and develops a kind of independence that's really hard to do in the same way when you're at home.

I'm talking about stuff like working abroad, long term backpacking, Peace Corps, etc.

Women often move into a caretaking role leading up to marriage and it only gets way more intense. I think 20-something women benefit from putting themselves and their preferences and values first for a period of time before they get subsumed into marriage and kids.

I lived and worked abroad for two three-months stints and backpacked for the equivalent of ~15 months over about 6 trips and several years, all while in a relationship with my now husband. I traveled a ton in my 20s.

You think your average married 20 something is living and working abroad on her own? You think this is common?

What’s common is a woman starting a family young and quitting her job since her earnings as a 26 year old won’t even cover daycare. Let alone the fact she only receives 6 weeks of leave and her employer couldn’t care less since she has limited experience.

I grew up in a relatively affluent community where women marry young and the difference was astounding.

Women marry young when they need a meal ticket.

Let's be honest. Those women were never going to join the Peace Corps or spend months backpacking around developing countries, even if they didn't get married. I got married, went to law school, and then spent 6 weeks backpacking with my husband in rural India as my post-bar trip. It's because that's part of my interests and ambition. The marriage part didn't change me, nor did it change them.

I think that's probably right. When I was an expat I knew a bunch of married couples who'd moved abroad together, too. Some who are in State Dept now and still live overseas.

I didn't get married until my late 30s. I think if I'd married the person I am with now, when I was younger, I'd have had some better things about my 20s and some much worse. We met at a good time for us. I can see real advantages to meeting your person young - but I also see a lot of people who married young and it was kind of a nightmare. Depends on the people, for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

Yes but to me feminism would also make sure that the stay at home parent”s contributions to the household are given equal weight at the working parent. That usually isnt the case either from a respect from society point of view or monetarily.

That perspective of equal weight is between the couple in question.

That’s not enough. It needs to be codified financially and legally. Women sink into poverty very quickly upon divorce or widowhood when they have always depended on a man for financial support.

Sorry, are you 15 years old? You remind me of the people pointing out that fat people are fat because you’re so “concerned about their health”. Mind your own business and stop pretending that you care about SAHMs for any other reason than your own insecure need to judge.

If everyone minded their own business, DCUM would go out of business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

No one's making you have children. If you can't do it ethically and in a socially responsible way, maybe don't have them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is men? Most women I know would have been happy to settle down earlier, but the men were chasing tail and unwilling to commit. The exceptions being Southern, Midwestern, or religious men, many of whom were locked up by college graduation.

Yeah, one of my friends married one of those southern/mkdwesten religious guys and guess what? Divorced at 30 with two young kids because it turned out he was gay and very good at hiding it! Obviously not gojng to happen all the time but it is a risk — the younger you marry someone the higher the risk they haven’t really come to terms with who they are as an adult person.

[Anonymous]

I’m the opposite. I was raised in a very conservative, traditional family. While I did go to college, it was more about being educated so I could find a decent man. I was taught to not worry too much about a career since I would marry a man with money and stay home anyway. I also missed out on a lot of fun 20s experiences, like parties, going out, and travelling, because “good girls” don’t do those things and decent men would see it as a red flag if I was going out to bars and having fun with girl friends.

I did marry the guy, but the marriage ended in my mid-30s. So it’s been 5 years of scrambling to get a career, learning about money (I was always told not to worry my pretty little head about finances), all while raising 2 kids.

I desperately wished I had prioritized a career in my 20s so I wouldn’t be in this situation now. Things are finally stabilizing and I’m making decent money, but it’s been so hard. And I REALLY wish I had spent more time having fun in my 20s - since I’m so far behind financially, I’ll probably never really get to travel or spend money on frivolous things.

I really wish I had been shown the reality of both sides - that neither are perfect, both have their pros and cons. I was sold that getting married and having kids was the highest thing I could do, and it just wasn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Oh so now the only feminist and socially and ethical choice is to work a ton and have no children at all. And therefore, it’s fairly pointless to be married because let’s face it, you’ll end up in this forum crying about being cheated on or doing the cheating yourself eventually.

Wow, sounds like such an array of choices.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

No one's making you have children. If you can't do it ethically and in a socially responsible way, maybe don't have them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

No one's making you have children. If you can't do it ethically and in a socially responsible way, maybe don't have them?

Oh so now the only feminist and socially and ethical choice is to work a ton and have no children at all. And therefore, it’s fairly pointless to be married because let’s face it, you’ll end up in this forum crying about being cheated on or doing the cheating yourself eventually.

Wow, sounds like such an array of choices.

[Anonymous]

Not to say that different people don't have different experiences, but the OP doesn't reflect my experience at all. I'm from the midwest, but went to college in California and have lived on one coast or the other my entire adult life. I'm in my mid-40s now.

Almost all of my women friends (~80-90%, I would guess) are married with kids. Almost all of us got married and had kids in our 30s. And almost all of us have advanced degrees, most of us have one or more degrees from an elite (i.e. T20) school. These are people living in different places across the country, but mostly big metro areas that people are saying are hostile to families (DC, SF, NYC, Seattle, etc).

I never had the sense that marriage and kids were discouraged or looked down upon. I wouldn't say were "dating to get married" in our 20s, but marriage was not anathema.

I guess the point of this post is to ask whether it really is common for people to experience marriage being discouraged and frowned upon. It doesn't match mine at all, so asking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think your knee jerk rejection of trad wife contributes to how we got here.
I’m a Gen Xer and feminism used to be all about promoting CHOICES for women and not bashing one choice in favor of another.
But if a choice doesn’t work for you HEB it’s okay ti say that without the disclaimer that you aren’t a “trad wife” propagandist.

Sometimes you really can’t have it all. At least not at the same time. So it’s all about prioritizing g what’s important to you.

Choice feminism has always been BS. Feminism is the political, social, and economic equality of women. If that’s not what you want for yourself, fine, but don’t pretend that serving your husband while depending on him financially is a feminist act.

Nope. Feminism is defined by opening up possible life choices for women. If a man and woman team up and decide to allocate their marital income so the woman stays home, that’s a perfectly valid life choice.

But not a feminist choice.

Just out of curiosity, is it a “feminist choice” to work 80 hours a week and pay a team of barely-speak-English, desperate immigrant women less than a living wage (but that’s the market, right?) to serve you and and your husband and raise your kids for you, all while depending on you financially?

No one's making you have children. If you can't do it ethically and in a socially responsible way, maybe don't have them?

Oh so now the only feminist and socially and ethical choice is to work a ton and have no children at all. And therefore, it’s fairly pointless to be married because let’s face it, you’ll end up in this forum crying about being cheated on or doing the cheating yourself eventually.

Wow, sounds like such an array of choices.

Wow, huge, irrelevant leaps from being childfree to being cheated on. I hope your children have a more logical mind than you do.