FIL divested assets and now has no way to pay for MIL's nursing home care.

[Anonymous]

Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services.

Wow, so sorry OP

[Anonymous]

I have nothing constructive to add, only that I’m really grateful for you sharing this whole thing OP. While it’s certainly a unique situation, Ive gained valuable insight that will inform how I approach the matter of my parents, in-laws, and ultimately me and my wife aging.
Thank you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like a whole lot of not your problem to me.

It sounds like she may be ill enough that moving her to any "home care" will be out of the question. FIL really needs guidance from an elder care lawyer in their jurisdiction so that she and perhaps, he, can qualify for Medicare care as soon as possible.

MIL may be close to the end but his ability to live alone in a remote area and to make good financial and medical decisions will be in question. The standard to find someone incompetent is fairly high, everyone is going to have to develop boundaries from him.

I may have missed it but how is this anyone but FIL's financial problem to work out? Is he coming to BIL/SIL for $?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

yes, it literally is! it’s hiding assets from medicare.

No, it's not.

you’re going to need to provide some support for that.

I've been through it and my loved ones money and belongings were stolen. I just had to show I didn't steal them and had proof of some things so they let it go and approved them. This isn't a big deal. Especially if the house wasn't updated.

Except that’s not the case here! He sold the house for $125k under the appraised value to a family member.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

The original house is not relevant. Nor is the equity as they bought the house. What is relevant is how proceeds were spent and since they are married he can keep the house and have some assests. People here are giving you bad advice. FIL needs to call your county/state long term care office and get guidance from them. There is nothing an attorney can do as there is no money to hide. He may be having cognitive issues as well.

the original house is absolutely relevant for the Medicare look-back. how FIL spent the proceeds is irrelevant. FIL can’t keep the house because he already sold it, so not sure what you’re talking about there.

He keeps the cabin. Keep up.

If the cabin is actually his residence (which it apparently is not) sure. But that makes no difference wrt the $125k gift to his son.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services.

Wow, so sorry OP

The bolded so, so, so much. The adult children afraid to confront their alcoholic father. I think I'd tell my husband that you object to helping with MIL's bills unless and until FIL talks to an elder care law attorney and your husband is allowed to be present for that conversation. I have a feeling the financial situation might be much worse than you all think - i.e. - mountains of debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services.

Wow, so sorry OP

OP is not entitled to medical records or POA.

If they go to court, they aren't going to get guardianship as he is managing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services.

Wow, so sorry OP

The bolded so, so, so much. The adult children afraid to confront their alcoholic father. I think I'd tell my husband that you object to helping with MIL's bills unless and until FIL talks to an elder care law attorney and your husband is allowed to be present for that conversation. I have a feeling the financial situation might be much worse than you all think - i.e. - mountains of debt.

A mountain of debt doesn't matter as when they die it will just go away. That means you are worried about inheritance and there is none.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am so sorry to say this at what is an incredibly devastating and stressful time, but please consider that your mother in law may be a better candidate for hospice than a long term care facility. If she is not eating, and in the state you describe... it can be very hard for family to see that it is time to transition to end of life care, as opposed to prolonging life. I say this as someone whose own grandfather had serious and unnecessary surgery about a week before he died. We would have been better off discussing a palliative care plan, but were all in denial. I wish you all the best as you navigate this incredibly challenging situation.

OP here. She is a DNR at this time so if she does decline it will be the end. FIL does not include my husband in the healthcare conversations - but I doubt hospice care has been brought up. She would be eligible for a palliative care referral, though.

She would definitely be eligible for hospice - my grandmother was in a very similar situation and was accepted to hospice. The care is much better (better pain and comfort management) and can be provided in a long term care facility. I know you don’t have control over it, just sharing in case helpful at any point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How Does The Medicaid Look Back Period Work?
The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) explains that when applying for Medicaid to pay for nursing home care and other services associated with senior care while in a nursing home, the Medicaid eligibility worker asks if the individual recently gave away any assets such as vehicles or money. The representative also asks if the person sold property for less than its fair market value at the time of the sale within the past five years.

This transferring of assets usually results in a penalty, meaning that the person seeking senior living at a nursing home is ineligible for Medicaid, “For as long as the value of the asset should have been used” to pay for the nursing home care.

The site uses the example that if nursing home care costs $5,000 per month and the individual transferred $10,000, then the person is ineligible for Medicaid for two months. The penalty begins the month of the Medicaid application, not the month the individual transferred the property.

The individual then potentially qualifies for Medicaid benefits after the Medicaid look back penalty ends. That qualification is contingent upon the person not transferring any assets in any months while serving the initial look-back period penalty.

That the transaction was within the family and not arms length certainly does not help.

FIL is an IDIOT. Does he have cognitive issues? Or did he just think everyone else would pony up $ for her expensive care?

He can keep the cabin as it is his residence but he may need to sell it to pay out of pocket for care.

Is his plan that he and MIL will move in with BIL and SIL who will provide the care rather than HHA or a SN facility?

OP here - right now, there is no plan for her to be discharged home. He has back problems and could not be her caregiver. BIL and SIL work full-time.

DH and I need to clarify if long-term care means possibly a short-term SNF stay paid by Medicare or if the recommendation at this point is for long-term care directly from the LTCAH. FIL has not been forthcoming with information, and DH doesn't want to ask clarifying questions. The communication problems in this family drive me nuts.

FIL is a life-long alcoholic. I've asked the extended family if he and MIL ever made any plan for their aging needs, and the answer is no. Per one of his siblings (verbatim): "They never planned for any kind of long-term care."

You mentioned she has not been able to participate in therapy so unfortunately I likely that Medicare will pay for short term, because they only do so for rehab. I’m so sorry this is very difficult. The LTAC can’t discharge without a plan though (and home without 24 hr care is not a plan) and a long term care facility won’t accept without a plan for payment so the facility is going to have to work with your FIL and help him figure it out. So sorry.

[Anonymous]

If you don't think your FIL is understanding the situation or his options, your DH can ask the social worker at the medical facility to talk to him. The social worker can't tell your DH anything confidential, but they can listen to your DH's concerns and then talk to your FIL. Your DH can make sure the social worker understands the whole picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services

Wow, so sorry OP

OP is not entitled to medical records or POA.

If they go to court, they aren't going to get guardianship as he is managing it.

The suggestion is to name one of the children POA, not OP. FIL is described as a “lifelong alcoholic,” and it doesn’t sound like he’s doing a great job managing MIL’s care. If the siblings stick together, they might prevail. ideally they wouldn’t go to court and the alcoholic has been controlling everyone when faced with a united resistance might step aside.

OP can’t make any of that happen, but she can suggest it to the siblings if she wishes. MIL is a vulnerable and very ill person. I would advocate for her best interest, and FIL is clearly not acting in her best interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services

Wow, so sorry OP

OP is not entitled to medical records or POA.

If they go to court, they aren't going to get guardianship as he is managing it.

The suggestion is to name one of the children POA, not OP. FIL is described as a “lifelong alcoholic,” and it doesn’t sound like he’s doing a great job managing MIL’s care. If the siblings stick together, they might prevail. ideally they wouldn’t go to court and the alcoholic has been controlling everyone when faced with a united resistance might step aside.

OP can’t make any of that happen, but she can suggest it to the siblings if she wishes. MIL is a vulnerable and very ill person. I would advocate for her best interest, and FIL is clearly not acting in her best interest.

There is a high threshold to get guardianship if there is a spouse involved. I've done it. It was simple for us but wouldn't be in this situation.

[Anonymous]

OP, the answer is an elder care attorney. Please have him consult one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was there anything in writing about ILs continuing to use the house for living part time or storage?

OP this is so awful and I feel for your MIL. How frightened she must be. I don’t know what you can do right now to help her besides saying to DH and his siblings
-FIL is an alcoholic and is not capable of managing MILs care
-It is scary that he is denying you access to records and providers
-I hope that you approach him together and tell FIL to name one of you as POA, and tell him you will go to court if he says no

It sounds like everyone has danced to FIL’s fiddle for a long time, and no one wants to stand up to him. It’s impossible for the rest of the family to make any decisions or figure anything out because FIL denies the information. Unless one of the children can take over I feel that MIL will be trapped under his “care.””

I’m also worried for BIL and his wife in the original house. If FIL tries to bring her there without adequate care, but could put them in a dicey position. Perhaps needs to be reported to adult social services

Wow, so sorry OP

OP is not entitled to medical records or POA.

If they go to court, they aren't going to get guardianship as he is managing it.

The suggestion is to name one of the children POA, not OP. FIL is described as a “lifelong alcoholic,” and it doesn’t sound like he’s doing a great job managing MIL’s care. If the siblings stick together, they might prevail. ideally they wouldn’t go to court and the alcoholic has been controlling everyone when faced with a united resistance might step aside.

OP can’t make any of that happen, but she can suggest it to the siblings if she wishes. MIL is a vulnerable and very ill person. I would advocate for her best interest, and FIL is clearly not acting in her best interest.

There is a high threshold to get guardianship if there is a spouse involved. I've done it. It was simple for us but wouldn't be in this situation.

Most of the people in this thread have done a lot of caretaking. You don’t know every piece of their story and neither do I. You don’t know the jurisdiction. It’s such a hindrance when people march in thinking their own experience is identical to everyone else’s. I’ve seen the opposite to what you have. Both are valid. It’s just rude and dismissive to act like you have the ONE answer.