FIL divested assets and now has no way to pay for MIL's nursing home care.

[Anonymous]

I've posted about my ILs before. My FIL has three adult children, including my husband.

FIL sold his house to my BIL (husband's brother and his wife) 3 years ago. He sold the house under fair market value and gifted 125K in equity to BIL and his wife. The gift was so he and MIL could remain at the home as needed, close to MIL's medical care team. They planned to live in a remote cabin 90 minutes from the city. They found themselves only able to say for 1-2 weeks at a time due to MIL's frequent hospitalizations. My MIL has poorly controlled epilepsy and other neurological issues that affect her memory, balance, coordination, and overall functioning. She needed reminders to eat; FIL managed all the finances. She was not able to drive.

Roughly two months ago, she underwent the preparation for a routine colonoscopy, vomited her epilepsy medication, and went into respiratory arrest. She ended up ventilated in the ICU and was discharged to an acute, long-term care hospital. She now has a tracheostomy. She has come off the ventilator and is not eating. Her cognition is very poor - she knows who she and her husband are but does not recognize my husband. She doesn't know where she lives. She hasn't been able to get out of bed in 60 days or be able to start any speech, PT, or OT. She can't follow a two-step command, which is a safety risk. She is still in soft restraints because her limbs appear to have a mind of their own (she's constantly moving her legs and arms up in the air, whacking the nurses, and trying to pull out her NG tube). The doctors are recommending long-term care for my MIL.

Except—FIL divested 125K of his assets to "keep the family home in the family" and be close to MIL's care team. Social workers told him at the hospital he would be subject to the Medicaid 5-year lookback period. MIL receives social security and disability. FIL has an employment pension and social security. MIL cannot afford a nursing home on her income. FIL is not eligible for the live-in caregiver exemption (if the house is sold to an adult child who acted as a significant caregiver for 2+ years), nor could it be seen as an extraordinary, unforeseen event because MIL's health has declined for the past ten years. They don't have significant savings (less than 50k) and could be penalized at $391/day for about ten months. The only possible way is for BIL to sell the house he bought from FIL and give the money back, then use the funds towards MIL's care until Medicaid can kick in.

Has anyone been through something similar? I have no idea what to suggest to FIL. He is beside himself over this. He has about 2-3 weeks left before the LTACH is looking to discharge her.

[Anonymous]

A competent elder law/Medicaid attorney will probably know more about these issues than a social worker. It is certainly worth a consult.

The National Academy of Elder Law attorneys (NAELA) website has a member look up function.

[Anonymous]

5 year look-back period is only on the 125K, correct?

Ethically, BIL should pay back the gift since FIL has to pay the lookback charge. BiL benefitted and probably wants to keep the house which he must currently have title to.

However, BIL can't gift all the money back at once either (bc gift tax and financial reality).

Is there any legal way to alter the transaction and undo the gift so that father can have a 125K private mortgage which BIL pays off to FIL over time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've posted about my ILs before. My FIL has three adult children, including my husband.

FIL sold his house to my BIL (husband's brother and his wife) 3 years ago. He sold the house under fair market value and gifted 125K in equity to BIL and his wife. The gift was so he and MIL could remain at the home as needed, close to MIL's medical care team. They planned to live in a remote cabin 90 minutes from the city. They found themselves only able to say for 1-2 weeks at a time due to MIL's frequent hospitalizations. My MIL has poorly controlled epilepsy and other neurological issues that affect her memory, balance, coordination, and overall functioning. She needed reminders to eat; FIL managed all the finances. She was not able to drive.

Roughly two months ago, she underwent the preparation for a routine colonoscopy, vomited her epilepsy medication, and went into respiratory arrest. She ended up ventilated in the ICU and was discharged to an acute, long-term care hospital. She now has a tracheostomy. She has come off the ventilator and is not eating. Her cognition is very poor - she knows who she and her husband are but does not recognize my husband. She doesn't know where she lives. She hasn't been able to get out of bed in 60 days or be able to start any speech, PT, or OT. She can't follow a two-step command, which is a safety risk. She is still in soft restraints because her limbs appear to have a mind of their own (she's constantly moving her legs and arms up in the air, whacking the nurses, and trying to pull out her NG tube). The doctors are recommending long-term care for my MIL.

Except—FIL divested 125K of his assets to "keep the family home in the family" and be close to MIL's care team. Social workers told him at the hospital he would be subject to the Medicaid 5-year lookback period. MIL receives social security and disability. FIL has an employment pension and social security. MIL cannot afford a nursing home on her income. FIL is not eligible for the live-in caregiver exemption (if the house is sold to an adult child who acted as a significant caregiver for 2+ years), nor could it be seen as an extraordinary, unforeseen event because MIL's health has declined for the past ten years. They don't have significant savings (less than 50k) and could be penalized at $391/day for about ten months. The only possible way is for BIL to sell the house he bought from FIL and give the money back, then use the funds towards MIL's care until Medicaid can kick in.

Has anyone been through something similar? I have no idea what to suggest to FIL. He is beside himself over this. He has about 2-3 weeks left before the LTACH is looking to discharge her.

He can get a home equity loan, both he and his wife can take a 401k loan, or pay the daily penalty for his mother.

[Anonymous]

Every time you post, OP, I feel such disgust and fury against your FIL, who makes everything situation worse and forces all his relatives to suffer because of his hubris and poor decisions.

Sorry for being harsh, but it's a pity your MIL survived and is in such a state. It's not going to last, but it won't be pretty while it does.

I agree with PP that you need to contact an elder law attorney ASAP. On no account should MIL be brought home and dumped on BIL and his long-suffering wife (that one should do well to bail, honestly!).

[Anonymous]

What about the cabin? Can they sell that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've posted about my ILs before. My FIL has three adult children, including my husband.

FIL sold his house to my BIL (husband's brother and his wife) 3 years ago. He sold the house under fair market value and gifted 125K in equity to BIL and his wife. The gift was so he and MIL could remain at the home as needed, close to MIL's medical care team. They planned to live in a remote cabin 90 minutes from the city. They found themselves only able to say for 1-2 weeks at a time due to MIL's frequent hospitalizations. My MIL has poorly controlled epilepsy and other neurological issues that affect her memory, balance, coordination, and overall functioning. She needed reminders to eat; FIL managed all the finances. She was not able to drive.

Roughly two months ago, she underwent the preparation for a routine colonoscopy, vomited her epilepsy medication, and went into respiratory arrest. She ended up ventilated in the ICU and was discharged to an acute, long-term care hospital. She now has a tracheostomy. She has come off the ventilator and is not eating. Her cognition is very poor - she knows who she and her husband are but does not recognize my husband. She doesn't know where she lives. She hasn't been able to get out of bed in 60 days or be able to start any speech, PT, or OT. She can't follow a two-step command, which is a safety risk. She is still in soft restraints because her limbs appear to have a mind of their own (she's constantly moving her legs and arms up in the air, whacking the nurses, and trying to pull out her NG tube). The doctors are recommending long-term care for my MIL.

Except—FIL divested 125K of his assets to "keep the family home in the family" and be close to MIL's care team. Social workers told him at the hospital he would be subject to the Medicaid 5-year lookback period. MIL receives social security and disability. FIL has an employment pension and social security. MIL cannot afford a nursing home on her income. FIL is not eligible for the live-in caregiver exemption (if the house is sold to an adult child who acted as a significant caregiver for 2+ years), nor could it be seen as an extraordinary, unforeseen event because MIL's health has declined for the past ten years. They don't have significant savings (less than 50k) and could be penalized at $391/day for about ten months. The only possible way is for BIL to sell the house he bought from FIL and give the money back, then use the funds towards MIL's care until Medicaid can kick in.

Has anyone been through something similar? I have no idea what to suggest to FIL. He is beside himself over this. He has about 2-3 weeks left before the LTACH is looking to discharge her.

He can get a home equity loan, both he and his wife can take a 401k loan, or pay the daily penalty for his mother.

Before roping back in BIL and his wife, who have suffered already at the hands of OP's spectacularly destructive FIL, it's worth everyone's while to pay for a consult with the appropriate lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every time you post, OP, I feel such disgust and fury against your FIL, who makes everything situation worse and forces all his relatives to suffer because of his hubris and poor decisions.

Sorry for being harsh, but it's a pity your MIL survived and is in such a state. It's not going to last, but it won't be pretty while it does.

I agree with PP that you need to contact an elder law attorney ASAP. On no account should MIL be brought home and dumped on BIL and his long-suffering wife (that one should do well to bail, honestly!).

The MIL shouldn’t lose her medical care, but the BIL and wife have both benefitted financially here and now need to pay the piper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've posted about my ILs before. My FIL has three adult children, including my husband.

FIL sold his house to my BIL (husband's brother and his wife) 3 years ago. He sold the house under fair market value and gifted 125K in equity to BIL and his wife. The gift was so he and MIL could remain at the home as needed, close to MIL's medical care team. They planned to live in a remote cabin 90 minutes from the city. They found themselves only able to say for 1-2 weeks at a time due to MIL's frequent hospitalizations. My MIL has poorly controlled epilepsy and other neurological issues that affect her memory, balance, coordination, and overall functioning. She needed reminders to eat; FIL managed all the finances. She was not able to drive.

Roughly two months ago, she underwent the preparation for a routine colonoscopy, vomited her epilepsy medication, and went into respiratory arrest. She ended up ventilated in the ICU and was discharged to an acute, long-term care hospital. She now has a tracheostomy. She has come off the ventilator and is not eating. Her cognition is very poor - she knows who she and her husband are but does not recognize my husband. She doesn't know where she lives. She hasn't been able to get out of bed in 60 days or be able to start any speech, PT, or OT. She can't follow a two-step command, which is a safety risk. She is still in soft restraints because her limbs appear to have a mind of their own (she's constantly moving her legs and arms up in the air, whacking the nurses, and trying to pull out her NG tube). The doctors are recommending long-term care for my MIL.

Except—FIL divested 125K of his assets to "keep the family home in the family" and be close to MIL's care team. Social workers told him at the hospital he would be subject to the Medicaid 5-year lookback period. MIL receives social security and disability. FIL has an employment pension and social security. MIL cannot afford a nursing home on her income. FIL is not eligible for the live-in caregiver exemption (if the house is sold to an adult child who acted as a significant caregiver for 2+ years), nor could it be seen as an extraordinary, unforeseen event because MIL's health has declined for the past ten years. They don't have significant savings (less than 50k) and could be penalized at $391/day for about ten months. The only possible way is for BIL to sell the house he bought from FIL and give the money back, then use the funds towards MIL's care until Medicaid can kick in.

Has anyone been through something similar? I have no idea what to suggest to FIL. He is beside himself over this. He has about 2-3 weeks left before the LTACH is looking to discharge her.

He can get a home equity loan, both he and his wife can take a 401k loan, or pay the daily penalty for his mother.

Before roping back in BIL and his wife, who have suffered already at the hands of OP's spectacularly destructive FIL, it's worth everyone's while to pay for a consult with the appropriate lawyer.

Benefitted. They received a gift of 150k that they didn’t need to accept.

[Anonymous]

I am so sorry to say this at what is an incredibly devastating and stressful time, but please consider that your mother in law may be a better candidate for hospice than a long term care facility. If she is not eating, and in the state you describe... it can be very hard for family to see that it is time to transition to end of life care, as opposed to prolonging life. I say this as someone whose own grandfather had serious and unnecessary surgery about a week before he died. We would have been better off discussing a palliative care plan, but were all in denial. I wish you all the best as you navigate this incredibly challenging situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am so sorry to say this at what is an incredibly devastating and stressful time, but please consider that your mother in law may be a better candidate for hospice than a long term care facility. If she is not eating, and in the state you describe... it can be very hard for family to see that it is time to transition to end of life care, as opposed to prolonging life. I say this as someone whose own grandfather had serious and unnecessary surgery about a week before he died. We would have been better off discussing a palliative care plan, but were all in denial. I wish you all the best as you navigate this incredibly challenging situation.

OP here. She is a DNR at this time so if she does decline it will be the end. FIL does not include my husband in the healthcare conversations - but I doubt hospice care has been brought up. She would be eligible for a palliative care referral, though.

[Anonymous]

You've posted before. Why would they do that procedure and keep her like that?

He can apply for long term medicaid and see what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've posted about my ILs before. My FIL has three adult children, including my husband.

FIL sold his house to my BIL (husband's brother and his wife) 3 years ago. He sold the house under fair market value and gifted 125K in equity to BIL and his wife. The gift was so he and MIL could remain at the home as needed, close to MIL's medical care team. They planned to live in a remote cabin 90 minutes from the city. They found themselves only able to say for 1-2 weeks at a time due to MIL's frequent hospitalizations. My MIL has poorly controlled epilepsy and other neurological issues that affect her memory, balance, coordination, and overall functioning. She needed reminders to eat; FIL managed all the finances. She was not able to drive.

Roughly two months ago, she underwent the preparation for a routine colonoscopy, vomited her epilepsy medication, and went into respiratory arrest. She ended up ventilated in the ICU and was discharged to an acute, long-term care hospital. She now has a tracheostomy. She has come off the ventilator and is not eating. Her cognition is very poor - she knows who she and her husband are but does not recognize my husband. She doesn't know where she lives. She hasn't been able to get out of bed in 60 days or be able to start any speech, PT, or OT. She can't follow a two-step command, which is a safety risk. She is still in soft restraints because her limbs appear to have a mind of their own (she's constantly moving her legs and arms up in the air, whacking the nurses, and trying to pull out her NG tube). The doctors are recommending long-term care for my MIL.

Except—FIL divested 125K of his assets to "keep the family home in the family" and be close to MIL's care team. Social workers told him at the hospital he would be subject to the Medicaid 5-year lookback period. MIL receives social security and disability. FIL has an employment pension and social security. MIL cannot afford a nursing home on her income. FIL is not eligible for the live-in caregiver exemption (if the house is sold to an adult child who acted as a significant caregiver for 2+ years), nor could it be seen as an extraordinary, unforeseen event because MIL's health has declined for the past ten years. They don't have significant savings (less than 50k) and could be penalized at $391/day for about ten months. The only possible way is for BIL to sell the house he bought from FIL and give the money back, then use the funds towards MIL's care until Medicaid can kick in.

Has anyone been through something similar? I have no idea what to suggest to FIL. He is beside himself over this. He has about 2-3 weeks left before the LTACH is looking to discharge her.

He can get a home equity loan, both he and his wife can take a 401k loan, or pay the daily penalty for his mother.

Before roping back in BIL and his wife, who have suffered already at the hands of OP's spectacularly destructive FIL, it's worth everyone's while to pay for a consult with the appropriate lawyer.

Benefitted. They received a gift of 150k that they didn’t need to accept.

You don't know the backstory. FIL and MIL imposed for years on BIL and his wife. The wife had it up to there with the in-laws. The entire family saga is FIL forcing everyone to accept his dictates. At least, that's what I recollect from OP's previous posts.

And I agree with the other poster who says hospice. It's the humane thing to do: palliative care only.

[Anonymous]

He can divorce your MIL that's about the only option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You've posted before. Why would they do that procedure and keep her like that?

He can apply for long term medicaid and see what happens.

OP here - Which procedure? Do you mean the colonoscopy?