FIL divested assets and now has no way to pay for MIL's nursing home care.

[Anonymous]

FIL needs a consult with an elder care lawyer, BIL may want to attend as well. This needs to be prioritized. MIL may not be all that long for this world, leaving FIL to decline over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

[Anonymous]

OP - you said in the original thread that the house sold at or over market value for 632k. The math ain’t mathing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can't he sell the cabin?

The living situation was already fraught with significant tension (see here: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1174345.page).

OP here - I can't imagine FIL selling the cabin he poured his heart and soul into. Also, he financed his original home several times to pay for the building costs of the cabin, upgrades, etc.

So you think the "only possible way" is to sell the primary home that 4 people, including BIL and SIL, are living in. Because he poured his heart and soul into the cabin? OP, I think there's some denial going on here.

FIL wants to hang onto the cabin because in his mind that's the love nest for his next wife.

OP, If I were you I'd stay out of this except to murmur "Oh that's too bad" or "Gee that sounds hard" at appropriate intervals. There is nothing for you to do here.

It's so hard not to stay involved.

FIL visits MIL every single day. On days he can't go and goes to his cabin, he asks DH to go and will say he does not want MIL to be alone. DH goes once a week and has been going on weekends to visit his mom when FIL is at his cabin.

There have been various miscommunications; FIL called DH a few weeks ago in tears and said, "[MIL] is in multi-system organ failure and is septic!" DH and I rushed to say our goodbyes. All the family gathered at BIL/FIL/SIL's house that evening to support him. Everyone was crying, thinking it was the end and we had to arrange funeral arrangements. Turns out, MIL was "at risk" of sepsis and MOS due to the amount of interventions she had.

The most recent issue is that FIL was informed MIL could not return home. We are unsure how that conversation went, if she is eligible for 100 days at an SNF paid under Medicare, or if she is not eligible for SNF care and has to move to a long-term care facility. When DH asks for clarification, FIL says he will update him or gives non-answers. I may be in the wrong here, but I feel DH has the right to know if it's recommended his mom move into long-term care permanently. We assume she needs the care, but we have no updates or information besides what FIL disseminated. DH has tried to call the facility for information but was told they can't share anything with him because he's not on the chart as a contact. DH does not want to ask his Dad to be included as a point of contact.

I agree with every PP that hospice and or palliative care would be a good option. Knowing MIL, this is not how she would have wanted to live. But that conversation is not for me - it's for the doctors and her care team to have with FIL. FIL does not include DH or any other family members in these conversations.

Because ... why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

The original house is not relevant. Nor is the equity as they bought the house. What is relevant is how proceeds were spent and since they are married he can keep the house and have some assests. People here are giving you bad advice. FIL needs to call your county/state long term care office and get guidance from them. There is nothing an attorney can do as there is no money to hide. He may be having cognitive issues as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

I agree and as the house was never updated or repaired it’s unlikely FIL would have gotten 575.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

you don’t sell the house “legitimately” to a relative for $125k under the appraised value…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

The original house is not relevant. Nor is the equity as they bought the house. What is relevant is how proceeds were spent and since they are married he can keep the house and have some assests. People here are giving you bad advice. FIL needs to call your county/state long term care office and get guidance from them. There is nothing an attorney can do as there is no money to hide. He may be having cognitive issues as well.

+1 though an attorney or elder care financial advisor may be able to rovide guidance on how to manage other debts and access free services. Do not trust the people at the hospital for financial advice! The hospital and nursing homes will try t get a hold of anything they can get.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

yes, it literally is! it’s hiding assets from medicare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

you don’t sell the house “legitimately” to a relative for $125k under the appraised value…

Its fine. Not a big deal. FIL is allowed to keep a house and other assets. They just need to talk to the long term medicaid office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

The original house is not relevant. Nor is the equity as they bought the house. What is relevant is how proceeds were spent and since they are married he can keep the house and have some assests. People here are giving you bad advice. FIL needs to call your county/state long term care office and get guidance from them. There is nothing an attorney can do as there is no money to hide. He may be having cognitive issues as well.

the original house is absolutely relevant for the Medicare look-back. how FIL spent the proceeds is irrelevant. FIL can’t keep the house because he already sold it, so not sure what you’re talking about there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

yes, it literally is! it’s hiding assets from medicare.

No, it's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

you don’t sell the house “legitimately” to a relative for $125k under the appraised value…

Its fine. Not a big deal. FIL is allowed to keep a house and other assets. They just need to talk to the long term medicaid office.

It’s literally not fine to sell a house for less than it’s worth during the Medicare look-back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the details of the sale of their house to BIL? I don’t understand how they sold a house 3 years ago and have less than $50k in savings. Just how far below market price was the sale? Why would elderly people with modest savings think they could give $125,000 away? None of this makes any sense.

Ok, these aren't the exact details down to the dollar amount.

FIL inherited the home about 50 years ago. I believe it was mortgaged to 17K in the 1970s.
The house was sold for approximately ~450 in 2021.
325 was owed on the home. FIL did cash out refi's every few years.
The home was appraised at ~575 (DH and I assumed it would be worth 700K, but we were incorrect)
FIL "gifted" the 125K in equity to BIL and walked away with (roughly) 100K.

FIL spent about 40K on an exterior building on his cabin property, building a workshop for himself. He spent about an extra 10K on various things: diamond earrings for MIL, etc.

FIL gifted the equity to secure a quasi-tenantship in the home, to come/go as he and MIL please to attend her Dr's appointments. FIL never moved out of the home. All of the original belongings, furniture, clothing, and dishes remain. FIL and MIL still occupy the master bedroom. FIL lives there almost full-time now.

He didn’t gift the equity. He sold it for 125K less than appraisal which considering he still has all his crap there and is living in the master bedroom years later was a deal in his interest not the people who bought it.

It is unlikely that FIL would have actually gotten 575 without inspection and doing nothing to the house.

yeah well, that’s not how the government sees it. if he wanted to make some kind of bona fide deal, he should have done it in writing. now he’s screwed himself.

Wait did they not actually sell the house to BIL and skipped transaction costs, taxes and title changes? If he sold the house legitimately for 450 and walked away with only 100 k after mortgage and taxes and then spent 100K, I don’t think he’s triggering the look back.

FIL giving BIL a price break is not gifting money.

yes, it literally is! it’s hiding assets from medicare.

No, it's not.

you’re going to need to provide some support for that.