"Drama" in lieu of common sense?

[Anonymous]

Thank you for all the useful input, thus far. It truly helps to know how to narrow down any research. It makes me realize how “mum” my ILs are about their foibles and transgressions and illnesses, which can be truly dangerous. Keep any more information coming. This is enlightening, I am very grateful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

ADHD adults usually have compensatory strategies from a lifetime of living as ADHD. As well, there is some self awareness of the problem and empathy for those affected. That’s not to say it’s easy being partnered with an ADHD person. But, it would be possible, for example, for someone to figure out that he loses track of bills and paperwork, so that’s a bad household responsibility to be in charge of, but he finds doing the dishes easy and relaxing, so he’ll trade for that chore. An ADHD person might be late frequently and even appear flustered when late. But if someone who’s constantly late blames you for choosing restaurants with too little parking, or blames DC traffic, or rants about something else, that’s an issue other than ADHD.

What OP is describing sounds like someone with very little empathy whose behaviors are often sabotaging. She also describes herself as “overly patient,” which makes me wonder if she’s walking on eggshells to avoid provocation. These factors make me wonder if this relationship hasn’t headed into territory that’s emotionally abusive, particularly since such behavior is often subtle and so dependent on the context and people involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

ADHD adults usually have compensatory strategies from a lifetime of living as ADHD. As well, there is some self awareness of the problem and empathy for those affected. That’s not to say it’s easy being partnered with an ADHD person. But, it would be possible, for example, for someone to figure out that he loses track of bills and paperwork, so that’s a bad household responsibility to be in charge of, but he finds doing the dishes easy and relaxing, so he’ll trade for that chore. An ADHD person might be late frequently and even appear flustered when late. But if someone who’s constantly late blames you for choosing restaurants with too little parking, or blames DC traffic, or rants about something else, that’s an issue other than ADHD.

What OP is describing sounds like someone with very little empathy whose behaviors are often sabotaging. She also describes herself as “overly patient,” which makes me wonder if she’s walking on eggshells to avoid provocation. These factors make me wonder if this relationship hasn’t headed into territory that’s emotionally abusive, particularly since such behavior is often subtle and so dependent on the context and people involved.

+1

OP here. I am so impressed with the outpouring of support on this thread, thank you. It is really nice to be understood, in a situation that is hard to explain. The more I read about it, the more I think MIL and DH might have ADHD inattentive. Plus, lots of anxiety, stubbornness, self centeredness, need to be right, petulant, fixation on a book they are reading, or a screen game they are playing, for example.

I think there may also be some depression and control issues (if it is something else, let me know - DH's siblings and MIL has this) - not wanting select people to feel joy, and "crushing them" when they do (if it sounds sick, it is, and getting worse as DH grows older, but I def see it in his mom and siblings). The information provided has been so helpful, keep it coming. It is great to have a starting point, whereas before, I didn't know where to begin. It is hard when one comes from an opposite type of family - I thought everyone was like my family (which sounds naive, but I think children sometimes feel this way growing up - wanting to see the similarities in other people - for the good). As an adult, I teach my children to celebrate both the similarities and differences in other people, they know that people were not meant to all be alike, and what a boring place the world would be if we were all alike. In DH's family, differences or change cause a ton of anxiety, they seem to take it personally.

[Anonymous]

That fixation on a book or a game is another hallmark adhd sign - hyperfocus on things and activities that they find enjoyable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

ADHD adults usually have compensatory strategies from a lifetime of living as ADHD. As well, there is some self awareness of the problem and empathy for those affected. That’s not to say it’s easy being partnered with an ADHD person. But, it would be possible, for example, for someone to figure out that he loses track of bills and paperwork, so that’s a bad household responsibility to be in charge of, but he finds doing the dishes easy and relaxing, so he’ll trade for that chore. An ADHD person might be late frequently and even appear flustered when late. But if someone who’s constantly late blames you for choosing restaurants with too little parking, or blames DC traffic, or rants about something else, that’s an issue other than ADHD.

What OP is describing sounds like someone with very little empathy whose behaviors are often sabotaging. She also describes herself as “overly patient,” which makes me wonder if she’s walking on eggshells to avoid provocation. These factors make me wonder if this relationship hasn’t headed into territory that’s emotionally abusive, particularly since such behavior is often subtle and so dependent on the context and people involved.

Your last paragraph is exactly 2nd and 3rd order conditions if ADHD.

A TREATED person with adhd has been training in .org systems that work for him and to be kind when letting someone down. Meds also really help with the inattentive on, pacing around, not listening/hearing, seeing krap right in front of their face, etc. And cut the smartphone time stat.

And untreated adult male will exhibit 2nd order conditions when he messes up and is even asked , “what happened?” He will dodge the question, cover things up, stonewall, make lame excuses, blame you, change the subject. This continues for a couple years and trust is broken.
Then it’s the 3rd order conditions: ask him “what happened?” and he launches in to a tirade, pretends to be a victim of his “bitch wife”, threatens abandonment, falls in to depression, totally demotivated and delusional of his faults.

Counseling would have a lot to unpack by then. Family of origin is big too, since adhd is heriditory. He and has family have built a lifetime of excuses and conspiracy theory excuses for their faults — if all are untreated. They are the good guys, everyone is the bad guy. How dare you accuse them of anything!

[Anonymous]

Er... if you can be financially independent by yourself, I would seriously consider leaving him. You deserve so much better.

I don't buy the anxiety thing.

I have a serious anxiety disorder that sometimes makes my life hell.

Do I take it out on my family, particularly when they need me most? No. I rise to the occasion, call 911, take pulse, consult with docs, drive to and fro, rinse-repeat with other issues such as my child's special needs and his accommodations at school, or whatever crops up.

And then when everyone is stable I collapse with multiple panic attacks, cannot sleep for days on end, and can barely function. I have developed high blood pressure over the years and other physical symptoms of stress because of my anxiety.

So no. He can do better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

ADHD adults usually have compensatory strategies from a lifetime of living as ADHD. As well, there is some self awareness of the problem and empathy for those affected. That’s not to say it’s easy being partnered with an ADHD person. But, it would be possible, for example, for someone to figure out that he loses track of bills and paperwork, so that’s a bad household responsibility to be in charge of, but he finds doing the dishes easy and relaxing, so he’ll trade for that chore. An ADHD person might be late frequently and even appear flustered when late. But if someone who’s constantly late blames you for choosing restaurants with too little parking, or blames DC traffic, or rants about something else, thajt’s an issue other than ADHD.

What OP is describing sounds like someone with very little empathy whose behaviors are often sabotaging. She also describes herself as “overly patient,” which makes me wonder if she’s walking on eggshells to avoid provocation. These factors make me wonder if this relationship hasn’t headed into territory that’s emotionally abusive, particularly since such behavior is often subtle and so dependent on the context and people involved.

Your last paragraph is exactly 2nd and 3rd order conditions if ADHD.

A TREATED person with adhd has been training in .org systems that work for him and to be kind when letting someone down. Meds also really help with the inattentive on, pacing around, not listening/hearing, seeing krap right in front of their face, etc. And cut the smartphone time stat.

And untreated adult male will exhibit 2nd order conditions when he messes up and is even asked , “what happened?” He will dodge the question, cover things up, stonewall, make lame excuses, blame you, change the subject. This continues for a couple years and trust is broken.
Then it’s the 3rd order conditions: ask him “what happened?” and he launches in to a tirade, pretends to be a victim of his “bitch wife”, threatens abandonment, falls in to depression, totally demotivated and delusional of his faults.

Counseling would have a lot to unpack by then. Family of origin is big too, since adhd is heriditory. He and has family have built a lifetime of excuses and conspiracy theory excuses for their faults — if all are untreated. They are the good guys, everyone is the bad guy. How dare you accuse them of anything!

PP, what you’re describing has many hallmarks of personality disorder, which also runs in families and occurs in around nine percent of the population. I used to always ascribe these traits to ADHD as well, and I ended up allowing myself to be rather significantly abused by people whom I thought couldn’t help it. I gave them intense empathy, in fact, believing that if I could just better accommodate their differences that their anger would abate.

OP, what it really comes down to is figuring out what you can tolerate. Put boundaries in place for anything you don’t tolerate. If, in the long term, boundaries prove inadequate for improving your quality of life, consider separation. While it sounds like your husband is the disordered person, counseling for you can help you to prioritize how to set family rules and make changes in your life. It can help you unwind what you want for yourself after years of catering to someone else’s unreasonable choices.

[Anonymous]

What’s a “personality disorder?” Is they anything more specific to call it or different kinds relevant here?

He has a passive, laid back, do-nothing temperament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, my parents. I believe it’s anxiety.

oP, your spouse’s case sounds like simple No Common Sense + Self-Centeredness
Maybe even ADD if it’s truly in his family...

Definitely in the family: stubborn + ADD inattentive + major, major, major anxiety = train wreck.

They all totally have ADHD Inattentive. That also leads to anger issues, extreme defensiveness (for messing up all the time), anxiety, and depressi N.

Can he get into therapy or ideally see a psychiatrist about the adhd.

ADHD adults usually have compensatory strategies from a lifetime of living as ADHD. As well, there is some self awareness of the problem and empathy for those affected. That’s not to say it’s easy being partnered with an ADHD person. But, it would be possible, for example, for someone to figure out that he loses track of bills and paperwork, so that’s a bad household responsibility to be in charge of, but he finds doing the dishes easy and relaxing, so he’ll trade for that chore. An ADHD person might be late frequently and even appear flustered when late. But if someone who’s constantly late blames you for choosing restaurants with too little parking, or blames DC traffic, or rants about something else, that’s an issue other than ADHD.

What OP is describing sounds like someone with very little empathy whose behaviors are often sabotaging. She also describes herself as “overly patient,” which makes me wonder if she’s walking on eggshells to avoid provocation. These factors make me wonder if this relationship hasn’t headed into territory that’s emotionally abusive, particularly since such behavior is often subtle and so dependent on the context and people involved.

+1

OP here. I am so impressed with the outpouring of support on this thread, thank you. It is really nice to be understood, in a situation that is hard to explain. The more I read about it, the more I think MIL and DH might have ADHD inattentive. Plus, lots of anxiety, stubbornness, self centeredness, need to be right, petulant, fixation on a book they are reading, or a screen game they are playing, for example.

I think there may also be some depression and control issues (if it is something else, let me know - DH's siblings and MIL has this) - not wanting select people to feel joy, and "crushing them" when they do (if it sounds sick, it is, and getting worse as DH grows older, but I def see it in his mom and siblings). The information provided has been so helpful, keep it coming. It is great to have a starting point, whereas before, I didn't know where to begin. It is hard when one comes from an opposite type of family - I thought everyone was like my family (which sounds naive, but I think children sometimes feel this way growing up - wanting to see the similarities in other people - for the good). As an adult, I teach my children to celebrate both the similarities and differences in other people, they know that people were not meant to all be alike, and what a boring place the world would be if we were all alike. In DH's family, differences or change cause a ton of anxiety, they seem to take it personally.

OP, I'm glad you're finding support here, but please get professional help to resolve these deep seated issues. I think you'll find that your family has a lot of similar underlying issues, even if the surface looks different. You didn't accidentally marry this man that many women would have walked away from. You owe it to your kids to get immediate professional help with this so you can equip yourself to provide them with a better life. Just leaving your husband won't fix this. Take care and good luck.

[Anonymous]

This is multiple siblings of mine. Out of multiple siblings, only one doesn’t react to make things worse in an urgent situation. The absolute worst is when my mother gets sick- all siblings go haywire with the worst possible response. It’s really harmed my desire to have adult relationships with them. A couple of them have been diagnosed with ADHD, and I have anxiety. We are a mess, but I am the only one with a stable personal and home life- and sometimes it feels like they are dragging me down.

And then I look at my own habits and get concerned that I will end up like them.

OP, just some perspective from the family of origin side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is multiple siblings of mine. Out of multiple siblings, only one doesn’t react to make things worse in an urgent situation. The absolute worst is when my mother gets sick- all siblings go haywire with the worst possible response. It’s really harmed my desire to have adult relationships with them. A couple of them have been diagnosed with ADHD, and I have anxiety. We are a mess, but I am the only one with a stable personal and home life- and sometimes it feels like they are dragging me down.

And then I look at my own habits and get concerned that I will end up like them.

OP, just some perspective from the family of origin side.

Thank you for your honesty. I STRONGLY believe that DH has some soul searching to do about his family of origin. They don't treat each other very well, as a by product of this type of thing that seems to happen all the time. They don't seem to have much patience for each other.

I thought of something else: DH seems to "take on" other people's personal problems - examples: DH feels obligated to help friends who are getting divorced, going through money troubles, relationship troubles, job troubles, you name it, he takes it on. He wants to help everyone, and it becomes too much for him and us to handle. It is as if he feels bad about having a job and a healthy family or whatever, and has to "redeem himself" because of it. I am talking about close family and "friends", but it is a lot of people, and a lot of work. He can not possibly help everyone, at the expense of his wife and children. It is exhausting, especially because we have enough to worry about ourselves. It's not as if DH is 20 years old, single with no family of his own to take care of (quite the opposite!!) , but people know he won't say no, so they push. It is positively draining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is multiple siblings of mine. Out of multiple siblings, only one doesn’t react to make things worse in an urgent situation. The absolute worst is when my mother gets sick- all siblings go haywire with the worst possible response. It’s really harmed my desire to have adult relationships with them. A couple of them have been diagnosed with ADHD, and I have anxiety. We are a mess, but I am the only one with a stable personal and home life- and sometimes it feels like they are dragging me down.

And then I look at my own habits and get concerned that I will end up like them.

OP, just some perspective from the family of origin side.

Thank you for your honesty. I STRONGLY believe that DH has some soul searching to do about his family of origin. They don't treat each other very well, as a by product of this type of thing that seems to happen all the time. They don't seem to have much patience for each other.

I thought of something else: DH seems to "take on" other people's personal problems - examples: DH feels obligated to help friends who are getting divorced, going through money troubles, relationship troubles, job troubles, you name it, he takes it on. He wants to help everyone, and it becomes too much for him and us to handle. It is as if he feels bad about having a job and a healthy family or whatever, and has to "redeem himself" because of it. I am talking about close family and "friends", but it is a lot of people, and a lot of work. He can not possibly help everyone, at the expense of his wife and children. It is exhausting, especially because we have enough to worry about ourselves. It's not as if DH is 20 years old, single with no family of his own to take care of (quite the opposite!!) , but people know he won't say no, so they push. It is positively draining.

OP again. example: having a homeless guy stay at our house while we were on vacation (not trying to be rude, but that smell does NOT come out - ever), also gave homeless guy a lot of things - nice car, place to stay, job, etc. I mean, when is enough enough? Sorry to be giving so many examples, but there are many, unfortunately!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is multiple siblings of mine. Out of multiple siblings, only one doesn’t react to make things worse in an urgent situation. The absolute worst is when my mother gets sick- all siblings go haywire with the worst possible response. It’s really harmed my desire to have adult relationships with them. A couple of them have been diagnosed with ADHD, and I have anxiety. We are a mess, but I am the only one with a stable personal and home life- and sometimes it feels like they are dragging me down.

And then I look at my own habits and get concerned that I will end up like them.

OP, just some perspective from the family of origin side.

Thank you for your honesty. I STRONGLY believe that DH has some soul searching to do about his family of origin. They don't treat each other very well, as a by product of this type of thing that seems to happen all the time. They don't seem to have much patience for each other.

I thought of something else: DH seems to "take on" other people's personal problems - examples: DH feels obligated to help friends who are getting divorced, going through money troubles, relationship troubles, job troubles, you name it, he takes it on. He wants to help everyone, and it becomes too much for him and us to handle. It is as if he feels bad about having a job and a healthy family or whatever, and has to "redeem himself" because of it. I am talking about close family and "friends", but it is a lot of people, and a lot of work. He can not possibly help everyone, at the expense of his wife and children. It is exhausting, especially because we have enough to worry about ourselves. It's not as if DH is 20 years old, single with no family of his own to take care of (quite the opposite!!) , but people know he won't say no, so they push. It is positively draining.

OP again. example: having a homeless guy stay at our house while we were on vacation (not trying to be rude, but that smell does NOT come out - ever), also gave homeless guy a lot of things - nice car, place to stay, job, etc. I mean, when is enough enough? Sorry to be giving so many examples, but there are many, unfortunately!

Forgot to add: all this while constantly complaining about money. Constantly.

[Anonymous]

Hi again, OP.

This all sounds pretty complicated. You're describing a spouse with a poor sense of boundaries and an inability to prioritize well. These symptoms can be caused by several conditions.

What's important to know is that, even if you were to figure out what's underlying your husband's behavior, mental illness is different from physical illness. He has to want to change. He has to experience enough discomfort in his own life and connect that discomfort to problems that he has himself caused before he'll be motivated to do something. Then he has to find mental health providers with whom he "clicks" to help lead him to a better place. Even with work, some people take years to become more functional. Some types of disorders tend to control people more than people control them. Does your husband seem to want to change? If you confronted him more forcefully would that put sufficient pressure on him to motivate change, or would it just create conflict? (I'm not dissuading you from confrontation. You should definitely confront. I'm just asking you to honestly assess the situation.)

What will be critical for you to remember throughout the process that you are entering is that you did not cause your husband to be this way, you cannot control his actions, and you cannot cure him of his behaviors. You are responsible only for your role in the relationship. That said, you are fully responsible for your role. For example, you own your house. Set and enforce boundary about who stays there for the safety of your home and belongings. If your husband disagrees, you don't leave town. You also own your water heater. Get it fixed. Living without hot water is not hygienic or fair to your children.

My first recommendation to you is to start keeping a journal. Instead of listing all of your husband's odd choices here, list them for yourself as they come up. When we tolerate disordered behavior for so long, we tend to lose sight of how disordered it is. In fact, we usually convince ourselves it's not that bad. Start keeping a list so as to keep yourself honest. Think about what your children see and experience as you log things.

Get yourself to therapy. It is the only way you are going to succeed in setting safe boundaries for yourself and for your children. You need to be able to say "no" to your husband when he puts you in these not-at-all ok situations. You're very lucky that the car on the highway incident didn't turn out poorly and that having a stranger in your house resulted in nothing worse than a bad smell. You're also lucky that your husband hasn't made a financial decision that's been ruinous. Don't prioritize fixing him or fixing the marriage. You can't control him, so figure out your role in taking care of you. That might have beneficial effects for your husband and your marriage.

Start cultivating friendships outside of your marriage. Chances are that you've been in a not-normal situation for a while. If this feels normal to you, you've probably lost touch with people who can tell you otherwise. Slowly reach out if you can to meet other people. It might be a fitness class at a community center, a volunteering opportunity, a chance to lead a scouting group for one of your children, but it helps to reach out. Also, if you're stuck with this crazy man for the time being, having something positive to look forward to is going to be important.