S/O big law absentee parent explains

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're not actually a woman. Or if you are, you're that 0.07% of humans born technically female in a physiological sense but actually have the black heart of a douchey law Bro within.

(but honestly, I think you possess dangling, hairy balls)

OP here - This says more about your outdated, ignorant stereotypes of women than it does about me.

I am a woman with a joint JD-PhD, actually. I know from aggressive women.

You still sound like a dude, the bad kind that is petulant, thinks the world owes them something (like, say, parents who weren't mere "schmoes"), and doesn't like other women.

And accepting that you are, technically, a woman, please remind yourself that women can be misogynists, too.

How is any of this relevant to the thread?

Because OP is claiming that OP is a female, but it's pretty suspicious. Like when people start a post titled "Tell me what type of underpants your 6 year old girl wears -- are they comfortable or tight?" you can be pretty sure that poster isn't a "mom" with a 6 year old "daughter."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're not actually a woman. Or if you are, you're that 0.07% of humans born technically female in a physiological sense but actually have the black heart of a douchey law Bro within.

(but honestly, I think you possess dangling, hairy balls)

OP here - This says more about your outdated, ignorant stereotypes of women than it does about me.

I am a woman with a joint JD-PhD, actually. I know from aggressive women.

You still sound like a dude, the bad kind that is petulant, thinks the world owes them something (like, say, parents who weren't mere "schmoes"), and doesn't like other women.

And accepting that you are, technically, a woman, please remind yourself that women can be misogynists, too.

How is any of this relevant to the thread?

Because OP is claiming that OP is a female, but it's pretty suspicious. Like when people start a post titled "Tell me what type of underpants your 6 year old girl wears -- are they comfortable or tight?" you can be pretty sure that poster isn't a "mom" with a 6 year old "daughter."

Holy backwardness. They still make dummies like you two? OP is hardboiled, very ambitious, not very maternal, and has little patience for BS. Yes, such women exist and women like you need to grow the fuck up and realize that. Quit the meangirl fuckery. She
might not fit in with your circle, but that does not make her less of a woman.

[Anonymous]

Who the hell cares whether OP is female or male? Focus on the message, not the messenger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who the hell cares whether OP is female or male? Focus on the message, not the messenger.

This is Dcum. 90% of threads skip straight over the message to pick apart the messenger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who the hell cares whether OP is female or male? Focus on the message, not the messenger.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who the hell cares whether OP is female or male? Focus on the message, not the messenger.

And the message is that OP is bitter and unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who the hell cares whether OP is female or male? Focus on the message, not the messenger.

And the message is that OP is bitter and unhappy.

No, that's a commentary on the messenger. You really aren't capable of even discerning the message, are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity partners:

OP's post is terrifying, so I find it encouraging that some of you are saying it doesn't have to be that way in order to make equity partner. What advice would you give senior associates who want to build a book of business in a more humane way? Thanks.

Equity partner here. Building a book of business (I have one at age 40, previous comment above) is a combo of doing great legal work, being highly responsive and being visible. The first is the easy part. The second means that you are 24-7 responsive to good clients. This does not mean you have to be in your office - we all have smart phones. They are a leash but they are a long one and allow you to be home early. If you have to excuse yourself from family dinner to take a call or respond to email, that is far understandable to not making it home. If you have an old dinosaur boss who isn't responsive, his/her clients will start contacting you for quick answers and over time, see you as their attorney.

Third, and most important - build a smaller more intimate network. Do not feel the need to go to every ABA/DRI/FDCC meeting. Pick one organization, preferably an industry meeting where your clients are, and do it at a high level. Be on steering committees, etc. speak, organize. Don't waste multiple weeks just showing up at conventions and shaking hands. You will not be memorable. I feel like OP is spinning her wheels - if you are a jack of all trades, you are a master at nothing. Be authentic in your relationships - as a person who was in-house noted, people can tell if you are only connecting because you want their business. That is not authentic. So maximize your time, join one board where your clients might be so you can do well while doing good. Have conversations with those whom your kids go to school with, there are opportunities there. Learn to say no to endless dinners where you are just filling a table for someone else's dinner (tough to do as a second year, but certainly doable as a 4th year).

One other bit of advice - not related to building a book but on point to being happy at biglaw - DO NOT BUY A BIG HOUSE IN THE SUBURBS. Live close to work. Reason I have dinner with my family every night is because I leave work at 6 and I am seated at the table at 6:20. If you have a 45 minute commute, you will never see your family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a big law attorney with a husband who makes less (and is able to stay in his enjoyable gig because I take care of finances). I saw the other thread about the big law dad who does poker/night out twice a week and the gym daily. Many of the responses slammed the husband, but allow me to share a different perspective.

Like the big law DH, I work every day. Yup. Every single day. 12-14 hours weekdays and 4-5 hours per weekend day. Why? Because I am trying to make equity partner. People simply do not realize that all partners are not created the same. Partners who lack a book of business have no more job security than associates, BUT we are much less marketable because our brand is inextricably linked to our firm once we accept an offer of partnership. So, my position is precarious and will remain so until I have some real clients of my own. I have no real connections. Sure, I have many friends and contacts, but I am a non-WASP, non-Jew whose parents were lower middle class Schmoes. I don't have that shared background that would lead the majority in my field to feel real loyalty to me. I distinguish myself through breadth and depth of knowledge and slavish devotion to my clients' needs.

This leads me to nights out. No one who goes from work to home is going to get far in big law unless they arrived with connections. What my husband sees as "fun" drinks, poker nights, parties, and other events are really me ingratiating myself with those who will one day send me business. From the outside looking in, many of these people are my "friends" and I have known them for years. I am having a grand time laughing and chatting with them, drink in hand, right? Wrong. I am pumping them for info and thinking of the bottomline at all times.

So, most of my week is spent working and drumming up work. Then I come home and it's more work. Help out with kids, help make household decisions, drive kids to day care, won't I coach a team. Bake some fucking cookies that some stay at home dingbats requested for a bake sale. I arrive home utterly spent and then I have to put on my mother/wife hat. I love my family, but it is beyond exhausting and DH often complains that I don't do enough.

And now we have arrived at the gym. My sanctuary. This is the only place in the world where I can drop the client-/family-pleasing grin, put on my headphones, and work out my frustrations in peace. I always hated the gym until I was married with kids and a job that was killing me and had nowhere else to turn. Most of my partners drink, drug, cheat, eat, smoke, and engage in other vices to cope. I am not going to let big law and the desire to give my kids a better life kill me. So, I go to the gym. Sometimes I cry on the treadmill. Sometimes I sprint as if I am trying to outrun my life. Sometimes I do squats until I can barely bend my legs. The hour at the gym is the only time I am truly happy.

So, as you can hopefully see, every aspect of my life from the long hours to the twice weekly "hang outs" to the gym has a purpose and is necessary. I bet the same is true for that DH. If the DW is reading this, my advice is to be supportive. He is killing himself for you and your kids. If you keep being greedy and asking for more, he will either drop from a stress-induced heart attack, divorce you, or quit his job. Any of those things means an end to your lifestyle and you can kiss the nice house, vacations, peace of mind you have in your low pay job, and kids' college funds goodbye.

Thank you for your honesty. I'm just curious is it all worth it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BigLaw partner here. I feel bad for OP. First and foremost, not all BigLaw is the same. Some BigLaw firms have a culture that is more understanding of family time than others. And it is practice group specific. Demand for lawyers is contracting at a time law schools are pumping out more grads. She is right - at some point in BigLaw, you either have clients (originations, responsibility) or you are highly techinical (IP, Tax) or you are expendible. That is a lot of pressure on someone who is a primary breadwinner.

I say all of this as a BigLaw partner who is 40 and makes 400 k per year. I turn down a lot of leadership roles, board positions, bar positions, because I can't do it all and be with my family. But, I also have an established book so I can work 8-6 and bill enough that I can make more than enough money to be comfortable. Neither DW or I have any desire to live the super affluent life.

Most of all, I can tell how miserable the OP is. I get it. She is killing herself for her family all week, and what looks like "me" time is still for her firm (although if you like your network, the social events can be kind of fun). Add in the dynamic of her being female - the divorce rate for our female equity partners is near 80% because women seem to lose connection to their SAHD - and I can see how OP is in a no-win situation.

Only advice I can give is to try and really figure out what makes you happy. BigLaw will never make you feel secure, it will always ask more from you. The reason why there is a cliche about no one wishing they spent more time at the office on their death bed is because its true. Sit down with your husband, figure out if you would both be happy with you making less (perhaps he needs to get a higher paying job to compensate) and get out of this cycle before it destroys what is supposed to be the best years of your life.

You sound like a really great person. How were you able to build your book of business while maintaining some semblance of balance? It sounds as if you get a steady stream of work from the same set of clients. From what I understand, that is increasingly uncommon as clients look for the most cost-effective option for each matter, which may not always be the same person/firm.

I have about a dozen clients - some bigger than others - who send me 95% of my work. We are competitively priced, my clients know I will treat them fairly even if we are not the most inexpensive (law is like a car mechanic, if you can't trust them to tell you what you really need, price is irrelevant). Granted, I am in an industry where clients always have work, so my model may not apply to those who are, say, commercial litigators who generally deal in one-off bet the company cases.

[Anonymous]

What's the point of all this, OP? Are you just going to say some form of giving your kids a bunch of "enrichment"? At what cost? You were raised by working class Schmoes, and you were successful. What about your life? Would you have wanted your father and mother to be as miserable as you are in your career in exchange for a few tennis lessons?

What's the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BigLaw partner here. I feel bad for OP. First and foremost, not all BigLaw is the same. Some BigLaw firms have a culture that is more understanding of family time than others. And it is practice group specific. Demand for lawyers is contracting at a time law schools are pumping out more grads. She is right - at some point in BigLaw, you either have clients (originations, responsibility) or you are highly techinical (IP, Tax) or you are expendible. That is a lot of pressure on someone who is a primary breadwinner.

I say all of this as a BigLaw partner who is 40 and makes 400 k per year. I turn down a lot of leadership roles, board positions, bar positions, because I can't do it all and be with my family. But, I also have an established book so I can work 8-6 and bill enough that I can make more than enough money to be comfortable. Neither DW or I have any desire to live the super affluent life.

Most of all, I can tell how miserable the OP is. I get it. She is killing herself for her family all week, and what looks like "me" time is still for her firm (although if you like your network, the social events can be kind of fun). Add in the dynamic of her being female - the divorce rate for our female equity partners is near 80% because women seem to lose connection to their SAHD - and I can see how OP is in a no-win situation.

Only advice I can give is to try and really figure out what makes you happy. BigLaw will never make you feel secure, it will always ask more from you. The reason why there is a cliche about no one wishing they spent more time at the office on their death bed is because its true. Sit down with your husband, figure out if you would both be happy with you making less (perhaps he needs to get a higher paying job to compensate) and get out of this cycle before it destroys what is supposed to be the best years of your life.

You sound like a really great person. How were you able to build your book of business while maintaining some semblance of balance? It sounds as if you get a steady stream of work from the same set of clients. From what I understand, that is increasingly uncommon as clients look for the most cost-effective option for each matter, which may not always be the same person/firm.

I have about a dozen clients - some bigger than others - who send me 95% of my work. We are competitively priced, my clients know I will treat them fairly even if we are not the most inexpensive (law is like a car mechanic, if you can't trust them to tell you what you really need, price is irrelevant). Granted, I am in an industry where clients always have work, so my model may not apply to those who are, say, commercial litigators who generally deal in one-off bet the company cases.

What is your industry/practice area?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why do you have to be so nasty? What are you so angry about if you're happy with the choices you've made? Why isn't DH making the cookies since he has more free time? Why not just make a huge donation so they can be grateful for your generosity?

Go read the parenting forum to learn what the PTA harpies think of moms who send checks. The Stepfords think they know all about a mother if she doesn't help bake, volunteer, whatever. You're also assuming DH, who is already whining, is willing to make the cookies.

I'm one of the PTA moms. I'd rather all the parents write checks so I didn't have to fundraise for our kids. It would make my life easier.

That's good for you, but you are in the minority. PTA moms will take the checks and then gossip viciously about what a bad mom the check-writer is and refuse to organize play dates with her kids. Trying to dictate what other parents do with their free time is the only power they have.

Oh please. Here is something that will blow your mind. I was a PTA mom and a biglaw partner.

Half our pta are lawyers working full time. We don't have time to gossip about who baked the best brownies. i buy them from the grocery store anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why do you have to be so nasty? What are you so angry about if you're happy with the choices you've made? Why isn't DH making the cookies since he has more free time? Why not just make a huge donation so they can be grateful for your generosity?

Go read the parenting forum to learn what the PTA harpies think of moms who send checks. The Stepfords think they know all about a mother if she doesn't help bake, volunteer, whatever. You're also assuming DH, who is already whining, is willing to make the cookies.

I'm one of the PTA moms. I'd rather all the parents write checks so I didn't have to fundraise for our kids. It would make my life easier.

That's good for you, but you are in the minority. PTA moms will take the checks and then gossip viciously about what a bad mom the check-writer is and refuse to organize play dates with her kids. Trying to dictate what other parents do with their free time is the only power they have.

Oh please. Here is something that will blow your mind. I was a PTA mom and a biglaw partner.

Half our pta are lawyers working full time. We don't have time to gossip about who baked the best brownies. i buy them from the grocery store anyway.

We're obviously making this up because it varies from pp and op's experiences.

~PTA dingbat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why do you have to be so nasty? What are you so angry about if you're happy with the choices you've made? Why isn't DH making the cookies since he has more free time? Why not just make a huge donation so they can be grateful for your generosity?

Go read the parenting forum to learn what the PTA harpies think of moms who send checks. The Stepfords think they know all about a mother if she doesn't help bake, volunteer, whatever. You're also assuming DH, who is already whining, is willing to make the cookies.

I'm one of the PTA moms. I'd rather all the parents write checks so I didn't have to fundraise for our kids. It would make my life easier.

I am both a PTA mom and a writer of big checks to the school. I learned from attending the PTA meetings that a check is the most way to get money to the school -- all the other fundraisers -- the annual auction, school clothing, book fair, bake sales -- take a portion of the money off the top to subsidize the organization of the event. Big checks made out directly to the PTA are the best way to give the school money to use for teacher projects and school improvement.