S/O big law absentee parent explains

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This mentality is why I left BigLaw as a senior associate to go to a government job. It's just NOT WORTH IT to stay on that kind of a treadmill long term. And FYI OP, the other thread's OP makes $170K. If her husband quit and took a GS-15 job, their combined HHI would be over $300K. It is quite possible to have a nice house, nice vacations, and pay for college on 300K. I know because DH and I are on track to do it.

+1

Just not worth it. Also, the day I think that $170K is a "low-paying job" is the day someone needs to put me out of my misery. My husband and I make $300K combined, and we have a home, vacations, and college and retirement funds. That kind of money and those kinds of hours are not necessary. Maybe OP wanted us to sympathize, but I just feel sorry for her. She may outearn me, but she's welcome to it. Her life sounds awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eh, own your choices. I worked in biglaw for 8 years. I worked with people like you (hell, I was someone like you). I don't at all dispute your characterization of what it takes to make equity partner. But if you want a less demanding job, just get one. I did. Yes, it's half of what I was making in biglaw. But the money I saved from my biglaw job provided a more than ample down payment for a house in a nice, sought after neighborhood. I am sure your house is bigger and nicer, I'm sure you have nicer things, I'm positive you have more outside help around the house and take better vacations. In a few years, both of our kids will be busy with school and off to college, and you'll have way more money and a better career going than I will. But for now, I leave work at 5, I don't work on the weekends, and I have time to work out during the work day, or by biking to/from work.

I don't think it makes you a bad person, or a bad mom, but don't act like it's something that happened to you. You weren't conscripted into being an equity partner. We all make choices.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why do you have to be so nasty? What are you so angry about if you're happy with the choices you've made? Why isn't DH making the cookies since he has more free time? Why not just make a huge donation so they can be grateful for your generosity?

Go read the parenting forum to learn what the PTA harpies think of moms who send checks. The Stepfords think they know all about a mother if she doesn't help bake, volunteer, whatever. You're also assuming DH, who is already whining, is willing to make the cookies.

Who gives a shit what the PTA moms think of them? Honestly, this is so far down the list of things I care about. If you buy into this nonsense, that's your problem.

[Anonymous]

BigLaw partner here. I feel bad for OP. First and foremost, not all BigLaw is the same. Some BigLaw firms have a culture that is more understanding of family time than others. And it is practice group specific. Demand for lawyers is contracting at a time law schools are pumping out more grads. She is right - at some point in BigLaw, you either have clients (originations, responsibility) or you are highly techinical (IP, Tax) or you are expendible. That is a lot of pressure on someone who is a primary breadwinner.

I say all of this as a BigLaw partner who is 40 and makes 400 k per year. I turn down a lot of leadership roles, board positions, bar positions, because I can't do it all and be with my family. But, I also have an established book so I can work 8-6 and bill enough that I can make more than enough money to be comfortable. Neither DW or I have any desire to live the super affluent life.

Most of all, I can tell how miserable the OP is. I get it. She is killing herself for her family all week, and what looks like "me" time is still for her firm (although if you like your network, the social events can be kind of fun). Add in the dynamic of her being female - the divorce rate for our female equity partners is near 80% because women seem to lose connection to their SAHD - and I can see how OP is in a no-win situation.

Only advice I can give is to try and really figure out what makes you happy. BigLaw will never make you feel secure, it will always ask more from you. The reason why there is a cliche about no one wishing they spent more time at the office on their death bed is because its true. Sit down with your husband, figure out if you would both be happy with you making less (perhaps he needs to get a higher paying job to compensate) and get out of this cycle before it destroys what is supposed to be the best years of your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're not actually a woman. Or if you are, you're that 0.07% of humans born technically female in a physiological sense but actually have the black heart of a douchey law Bro within.

(but honestly, I think you possess dangling, hairy balls)

OP here - This says more about your outdated, ignorant stereotypes of women than it does about me.

I am a woman with a joint JD-PhD, actually. I know from aggressive women.

You still sound like a dude, the bad kind that is petulant, thinks the world owes them something (like, say, parents who weren't mere "schmoes"), and doesn't like other women.

And accepting that you are, technically, a woman, please remind yourself that women can be misogynists, too.

[Anonymous]

Equity partners:

OP's post is terrifying, so I find it encouraging that some of you are saying it doesn't have to be that way in order to make equity partner. What advice would you give senior associates who want to build a book of business in a more humane way? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a big law attorney with a husband who makes less (and is able to stay in his enjoyable gig because I take care of finances). I saw the other thread about the big law dad who does poker/night out twice a week and the gym daily. Many of the responses slammed the husband, but allow me to share a different perspective.

Like the big law DH, I work every day. Yup. Every single day. 12-14 hours weekdays and 4-5 hours per weekend day. Why? Because I am trying to make equity partner. People simply do not realize that all partners are not created the same. Partners who lack a book of business have no more job security than associates, BUT we are much less marketable because our brand is inextricably linked to our firm once we accept an offer of partnership. So, my position is precarious and will remain so until I have some real clients of my own. I have no real connections. Sure, I have many friends and contacts, but I am a non-WASP, non-Jew whose parents were lower middle class Schmoes. I don't have that shared background that would lead the majority in my field to feel real loyalty to me. I distinguish myself through breadth and depth of knowledge and slavish devotion to my clients' needs.

This leads me to nights out. No one who goes from work to home is going to get far in big law unless they arrived with connections. What my husband sees as "fun" drinks, poker nights, parties, and other events are really me ingratiating myself with those who will one day send me business. From the outside looking in, many of these people are my "friends" and I have known them for years. I am having a grand time laughing and chatting with them, drink in hand, right? Wrong. I am pumping them for info and thinking of the bottomline at all times.

So, most of my week is spent working and drumming up work. Then I come home and it's more work. Help out with kids, help make household decisions, drive kids to day care, won't I coach a team. Bake some fucking cookies that some stay at home dingbats requested for a bake sale. I arrive home utterly spent and then I have to put on my mother/wife hat. I love my family, but it is beyond exhausting and DH often complains that I don't do enough.

And now we have arrived at the gym. My sanctuary. This is the only place in the world where I can drop the client-/family-pleasing grin, put on my headphones, and work out my frustrations in peace. I always hated the gym until I was married with kids and a job that was killing me and had nowhere else to turn. Most of my partners drink, drug, cheat, eat, smoke, and engage in other vices to cope. I am not going to let big law and the desire to give my kids a better life kill me. So, I go to the gym. Sometimes I cry on the treadmill. Sometimes I sprint as if I am trying to outrun my life. Sometimes I do squats until I can barely bend my legs. The hour at the gym is the only time I am truly happy.

So, as you can hopefully see, every aspect of my life from the long hours to the twice weekly "hang outs" to the gym has a purpose and is necessary. I bet the same is true for that DH. If the DW is reading this, my advice is to be supportive. He is killing himself for you and your kids. If you keep being greedy and asking for more, he will either drop from a stress-induced heart attack, divorce you, or quit his job. Any of those things means an end to your lifestyle and you can kiss the nice house, vacations, peace of mind you have in your low pay job, and kids' college funds goodbye.

You're killing yourself for yourself. Figure that out and either let the guilt over neglecting your family go, or change jobs

If my husband had this kind of job and was miserable, killing himself to buy a fancy house, I would tell him to quit. I'd happily kiss my vacations goodbye if it meant my husband could be happy more than one hour a day. Without a moment's hesitation. Nothing is worth that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're not actually a woman. Or if you are, you're that 0.07% of humans born technically female in a physiological sense but actually have the black heart of a douchey law Bro within.

(but honestly, I think you possess dangling, hairy balls)

OP here - This says more about your outdated, ignorant stereotypes of women than it does about me.

I am a woman with a joint JD-PhD, actually. I know from aggressive women.

You still sound like a dude, the bad kind that is petulant, thinks the world owes them something (like, say, parents who weren't mere "schmoes"), and doesn't like other women.

And accepting that you are, technically, a woman, please remind yourself that women can be misogynists, too.

How is any of this relevant to the thread?

[Anonymous]

The entire model of traditional big law law firm practice is archaic. It's based on the "master-apprentice" model of a career. The highly paid, overworked associate is basically an indentured servant. The last thing in the world their supervising partners want to do is teach them or mentor them in becoming a rain maker.

As scary as it seems, the only way to win the game is not to play. Which means either be a lateral for your entire career, get off the partnership track, or hang up your own shingle, or commit to climbing to the stop of the greasy pole of success by stepping on as many of your colleagues as you can on the way up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:BigLaw partner here. I feel bad for OP. First and foremost, not all BigLaw is the same. Some BigLaw firms have a culture that is more understanding of family time than others. And it is practice group specific. Demand for lawyers is contracting at a time law schools are pumping out more grads. She is right - at some point in BigLaw, you either have clients (originations, responsibility) or you are highly techinical (IP, Tax) or you are expendible. That is a lot of pressure on someone who is a primary breadwinner.

I say all of this as a BigLaw partner who is 40 and makes 400 k per year. I turn down a lot of leadership roles, board positions, bar positions, because I can't do it all and be with my family. But, I also have an established book so I can work 8-6 and bill enough that I can make more than enough money to be comfortable. Neither DW or I have any desire to live the super affluent life.

Most of all, I can tell how miserable the OP is. I get it. She is killing herself for her family all week, and what looks like "me" time is still for her firm (although if you like your network, the social events can be kind of fun). Add in the dynamic of her being female - the divorce rate for our female equity partners is near 80% because women seem to lose connection to their SAHD - and I can see how OP is in a no-win situation.

Only advice I can give is to try and really figure out what makes you happy. BigLaw will never make you feel secure, it will always ask more from you. The reason why there is a cliche about no one wishing they spent more time at the office on their death bed is because its true. Sit down with your husband, figure out if you would both be happy with you making less (perhaps he needs to get a higher paying job to compensate) and get out of this cycle before it destroys what is supposed to be the best years of your life.

You sound like a really great person. How were you able to build your book of business while maintaining some semblance of balance? It sounds as if you get a steady stream of work from the same set of clients. From what I understand, that is increasingly uncommon as clients look for the most cost-effective option for each matter, which may not always be the same person/firm.

[Anonymous]

That is why I went to government. Don't blame anyone but yourself for your miserable life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: You sound motivated and hard working enough to hang up your own shingle and be pretty successful at it. Have you ever considered giving that a shot? Obviously you would need your spouse's support on making this kind of a decision.

Also ignore all the haters on this thread. Most of them claim to be feminists but when push comes to shove their feminism is purely situational.

THIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Equity partners:

OP's post is terrifying, so I find it encouraging that some of you are saying it doesn't have to be that way in order to make equity partner. What advice would you give senior associates who want to build a book of business in a more humane way? Thanks.

Equity partner here. Building a book of business (I have one at age 40, previous comment above) is a combo of doing great legal work, being highly responsive and being visible. The first is the easy part. The second means that you are 24-7 responsive to good clients. This does not mean you have to be in your office - we all have smart phones. They are a leash but they are a long one and allow you to be home early. If you have to excuse yourself from family dinner to take a call or respond to email, that is far understandable to not making it home. If you have an old dinosaur boss who isn't responsive, his/her clients will start contacting you for quick answers and over time, see you as their attorney.

Third, and most important - build a smaller more intimate network. Do not feel the need to go to every ABA/DRI/FDCC meeting. Pick one organization, preferably an industry meeting where your clients are, and do it at a high level. Be on steering committees, etc. speak, organize. Don't waste multiple weeks just showing up at conventions and shaking hands. You will not be memorable. I feel like OP is spinning her wheels - if you are a jack of all trades, you are a master at nothing. Be authentic in your relationships - as a person who was in-house noted, people can tell if you are only connecting because you want their business. That is not authentic. So maximize your time, join one board where your clients might be so you can do well while doing good. Have conversations with those whom your kids go to school with, there are opportunities there. Learn to say no to endless dinners where you are just filling a table for someone else's dinner (tough to do as a second year, but certainly doable as a 4th year).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a big law attorney with a husband who makes less (and is able to stay in his enjoyable gig because I take care of finances). I saw the other thread about the big law dad who does poker/night out twice a week and the gym daily. Many of the responses slammed the husband, but allow me to share a different perspective.

Like the big law DH, I work every day. Yup. Every single day. 12-14 hours weekdays and 4-5 hours per weekend day. Why? Because I am trying to make equity partner. People simply do not realize that all partners are not created the same. Partners who lack a book of business have no more job security than associates, BUT we are much less marketable because our brand is inextricably linked to our firm once we accept an offer of partnership. So, my position is precarious and will remain so until I have some real clients of my own. I have no real connections. Sure, I have many friends and contacts, but I am a non-WASP, non-Jew whose parents were lower middle class Schmoes. I don't have that shared background that would lead the majority in my field to feel real loyalty to me. I distinguish myself through breadth and depth of knowledge and slavish devotion to my clients' needs.

This leads me to nights out. No one who goes from work to home is going to get far in big law unless they arrived with connections. What my husband sees as "fun" drinks, poker nights, parties, and other events are really me ingratiating myself with those who will one day send me business. From the outside looking in, many of these people are my "friends" and I have known them for years. I am having a grand time laughing and chatting with them, drink in hand, right? Wrong. I am pumping them for info and thinking of the bottomline at all times.

So, most of my week is spent working and drumming up work. Then I come home and it's more work. Help out with kids, help make household decisions, drive kids to day care, won't I coach a team. Bake some fucking cookies that some stay at home dingbats requested for a bake sale. I arrive home utterly spent and then I have to put on my mother/wife hat. I love my family, but it is beyond exhausting and DH often complains that I don't do enough.

And now we have arrived at the gym. My sanctuary. This is the only place in the world where I can drop the client-/family-pleasing grin, put on my headphones, and work out my frustrations in peace. I always hated the gym until I was married with kids and a job that was killing me and had nowhere else to turn. Most of my partners drink, drug, cheat, eat, smoke, and engage in other vices to cope. I am not going to let big law and the desire to give my kids a better life kill me. So, I go to the gym. Sometimes I cry on the treadmill. Sometimes I sprint as if I am trying to outrun my life. Sometimes I do squats until I can barely bend my legs. The hour at the gym is the only time I am truly happy.

So, as you can hopefully see, every aspect of my life from the long hours to the twice weekly "hang outs" to the gym has a purpose and is necessary. I bet the same is true for that DH. If the DW is reading this, my advice is to be supportive. He is killing himself for you and your kids. If you keep being greedy and asking for more, he will either drop from a stress-induced heart attack, divorce you, or quit his job. Any of those things means an end to your lifestyle and you can kiss the nice house, vacations, peace of mind you have in your low pay job, and kids' college funds goodbye.

You're killing yourself for yourself. Figure that out and either let the guilt over neglecting your family go, or change jobs

If my husband had this kind of job and was miserable, killing himself to buy a fancy house, I would tell him to quit. I'd happily kiss my vacations goodbye if it meant my husband could be happy more than one hour a day. Without a moment's hesitation. Nothing is worth that.

This was my life. Luckily we are a two income family. My DH was KILLING himself(literally). One really horrible Sunday night full of stress and anxiety about the drudgery ahead, I really laid into him and hounded him to go in Monday morning and quit. Quit cold, no job lined up. Once he agreed the relief in his face was unforgettable. He took a few months off, reconnected with the kids, reconnected with me and then found a job in house at an IT company. We had enough money saved to refinance the house down to sub 2k payments, and still have years salary in the bank. He now works from home a few days a week and he is finally living life. The only thing big life gave him that was great was a big income that allowed him to quit his job. We never got into a decadent lifestyle and because of that he had freedom to walk away.

The OP does not sound one bit happy with her life. It's sad, she's sad, but that life, lots of sad people.

[Anonymous]

OP, if this works for you and your family, I am happy for you. Ignore the judgmental posters, sure some folks are happy on 200k and some have the drive and need to make 1mil, to each his own. There is only one thing I would mention, make quality time for your kids and DH when you can, you are doing all this for family and remember to keep that family front and center. Peace!