Complicated Issue: Best Way to Blend this Unique Family????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mother remarried less than 3 months after my father died. My stepfather ran through my father's estate, including life insurance that was intended for his kids' education, in about a year. He gave his own kids a lot of the money. Then he started beating my mother. They divorced and my mother married a decent man. But, my mother's relationship with her kids was forever changed.

When my husband suddenly died, I knew what NOT to do as a widow with kids. I came to understand that my mother remarried quickly to escape grief and loneliness.

3 months??? Did she already know this guy or did she meet him at the funeral.

And while it's hard not to, people, try not to project YOUR personal history on MY current present. The anecdotes are useful but let's be real: They really have nothing to do with me and my situation.

I'm not the PP who shared the anecdote of her mother's remarriage, but I disagree that the anecdotes have nothing to do with you or your situation. People are telling you how they felt as children/teens when their parent moved on too quickly. Nobody has posted that they were thrilled when their parent quickly remarried after death of spouse.

Also, why did you post, asking for help, if you were going to take time discounting and refuting the advice and input?

1. A mother remarrying 3 months later to someone who ran through her father's inheritance (and that other anecdote) are so completely foreign to my reality that they're not even useful. Like, actually KNOWING my situation and the people in it, I cannot even relate. I can, however, say "Thank you for sharing".

2. I asked for help on the practical, financial, black and white stuff. People trying to give advice on the gray areas that they know NOTHING about makes it easy to discount what they say. And let's not act as if it's not allllll the way off the actual topic.

Some of it's useful; some of it's so out of left-field that I have no choice but to disregard it. I couldn't entertain it if I wanted to.

Can we really just stick to the topic here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP:

Don't you think that this man's children should be prioritized in this situation? He's not thinking clearly, but YOU are not whipsawed by grief, so perhaps you should think about what would be best for his girls? How do you think he will feel about you, years from now, when he realizes that he harmed his relationship with his girls by moving ahead too quickly with you?

1. You acknowledge that his girls, who are grieving their not-long-dead mom, are disturbed by the situation. You wrote (about this man's daughters) that "they're not terribly excited about another woman entering the picture--much less the home." Yet you don't care. You want what you want, and you're not bothered by the way this may harm vulnerable young girls who are grieving their dead mother.

2. You acknowledge that your ideal situation would be that in which his girls all move out: You wrote: "Having all 3 away at college would be ideal." I pity these girls. They will never feel comfortable coming home for Thanksgiving or any other holiday.

3. You HOPE that your presence will make his girls too uncomfortable to return often to their home: you wrote: "...like most college students they may become so absorbed with their own lives that they really won't care what their father and I do. Or who knows, having a stepmother move in may make dorm living look really good."

4. You don't care about these girls. You want them gone so that you can move in and take over their dead mother's home.

5. The girls can perceive your feelings about them. They sense that you don't want them.

6. Some women could turn into a caring, supportive friend for these children. You, however, are going to cause them a lot of hurt.

Please see my response at 13:16. I think your post deserves its own response but my 13:16 point pretty much addresses your points.

And please stop with the sanctimonious BS. There isn't a single parent alive with children heading off to college who aren't thrilled for the opportunity to date, love freely and kick their romantic pursuits up a notch. [b]That is entirely different from hoping that your presence as a step-mother will make his children uncomfortable enough that they prefer the dorms to coming home during holidays Do you think their mom also hoped they wouldn't come visit very often?. He was looking forward to the empty nest as a married man. Exactly. His situation changed recently, from married man to new widower. It has nothing to do with wanting [b]his kids out of the way, as I included my own DS in that count. (3 kids includes mine.)[/b] Oh, OK, so you were also hoping that your DS would not feel comfortable coming home from the dorms very often. Again, that is very different from hoping that your stepchildren find the presence of a stepmother enough to render the dorms preferable to visiting home. I think we're lucky to blend our family Well, isn't that nice that you think this. You admitted that his girls don't think so, so I guess we've established that your wants and desires trump theirs at the time that they're ALL OFF AT COLLEGE and we can focus on US!!!!!

Ummm...Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

At no point did I ever say I hope they don't want to come home for the holidays.

Perhaps you should reread the post.

Then you should probably get out of your feelings about a situation you know very little about.

You cannot gauge the needs, wants, grief of this family without having met even one of them. You.Just.Can't.

If you feel this to be true, why did you post on a public form asking for advice about the "best way to blend this unique family"? It seems that you really don't want to ready any advice telling you that your plan is not the "best way" to blend the family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here--

First, thanks for all of the responses. Some really good practical ideas and other things to consider have been presented in this thread.

A few things:

1. My plan is to continue to date and not marry/move in for at least another year--likely two. I'm enjoying the freedom of my empty nest and strides I'm making in my career too much to dive head first into this. However, we both know what we want and where we're going with this.

2. I'm somewhat shocked to hear so many people say a year is too soon for him to move forward with another woman given that his in-laws have given him their blessings to do just that. Perhaps they saw how lonely he's been but his former wife's mother and brothers told him they were okay with it.

It's lovely that the in-laws don't mind, but they're not the ones who have to live with you. It may not be too soon for the man to move forward, but it is likely to be too soon for the children. They have their own grief and seeing their father dating will likely be very, very difficult for them.

I agree that it's lovely that the in-laws don't mind. But I think it's beyond lovely that they actually gave their explicit "consent" for him to move forward. While they don't have to live with me, they've spent a great deal of time with their my SO and grandchildren/neices to know whether or not the timing is appropriate.

Yes, there are many emotional factors involved in a situation like this, but SO and I are on top of those. It's the practical/unromantic/financial stuff that I haven't figured out.

I was surprised to read all of the "It's too soon!", "But the kids!" responses. While it is something to consider, you shouldn't act as if you know me, my SO or his girls better than I/we do!


Serious question: Just how long do you guys think you could go without companionship if your spouse died unexpectedly, suddenly leaving you alone to raise two teens?

Please don't judge until you've walked a mile in his shoes. You don't know the lonely nights he's faced suddenly sleeping in a bed alone every night after 20 years. Having no one to help co-parent two TEENAGED GIRLS (and you're a man!). Spending over a year consoling them but having no one to console you after they've gone to bed at night.

How long is he supposed to mourn?

Since you asked op, I'll tell you. He should have waited a year. He should have taken a year to grieve and mourn and adjust to the new reality of life without his wife. He should have focused on his kids, and given them time to do the same. They should have gone through Mother's Day, Father's Day, summer BBQ's, Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas as a family of three. He should have been lonely, that's okay. You can't get through grief by ignoring it and filling your time with a new relationship. If you don't grieve, you don't heal, and you bring that pain to the next relationship.

I've walked that mile, op, as the teenaged girl who lost her mom. Tread carefully here. You're already dating him, fine, but wait to move in. Frankly, I'd wait until he was ready to sell that house and start fresh in a new one with you. And if he's not there yet and it doesn't make sense because of the kids, then don't move in until it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So don't do either. It's not like you don't have a choice here. You're both being selfish. Just date him, what on earth is wrong with that? If you are planning to wait a long time before moving in, then you can think about the finances of how you get their home for yourself later. Even two or three years is the blink of an eye to a motherless teenage girl. It's a very sensitive age. You are being unrealistic.

*Sigh*

SO and I have had the discussion about his children and their acceptance of his dating.

It really comes down to this: He has to live his life --while considering his children of course. But They simply cannot dictate when if ever he moves forward. Otherwise, the guy may not be "allowed" to marry until after they do!

Sorry but teenage girls simply do not get to control the lives of their parents--even if they are grieving the loss of their mothers. That's just life.

Ok then, fuck'em. I feel sorry for these poor girls. Look, nobody's saying he has to wait 10 years, or even 5. But one or two years isn't much, especially during the transition to college-- a very sensitive emotional phase.

If you don't care what people think, then don't ask. People are trying to tell you that your plans are selfish and very, very unrealistic. It's not what you want to hear, so you're blocking it out. But if you move into this man's house too early, life will be very difficult for you. And if you take their house from them when he dies, you can forget having any relationship with them (and their future children).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP:

Don't you think that this man's children should be prioritized in this situation? He's not thinking clearly, but YOU are not whipsawed by grief, so perhaps you should think about what would be best for his girls? How do you think he will feel about you, years from now, when he realizes that he harmed his relationship with his girls by moving ahead too quickly with you?

1. You acknowledge that his girls, who are grieving their not-long-dead mom, are disturbed by the situation. You wrote (about this man's daughters) that "they're not terribly excited about another woman entering the picture--much less the home." Yet you don't care. You want what you want, and you're not bothered by the way this may harm vulnerable young girls who are grieving their dead mother.

2. You acknowledge that your ideal situation would be that in which his girls all move out: You wrote: "Having all 3 away at college would be ideal." I pity these girls. They will never feel comfortable coming home for Thanksgiving or any other holiday.

3. You HOPE that your presence will make his girls too uncomfortable to return often to their home: you wrote: "...like most college students they may become so absorbed with their own lives that they really won't care what their father and I do. Or who knows, having a stepmother move in may make dorm living look really good."

4. You don't care about these girls. You want them gone so that you can move in and take over their dead mother's home.

5. The girls can perceive your feelings about them. They sense that you don't want them.

6. Some women could turn into a caring, supportive friend for these children. You, however, are going to cause them a lot of hurt.

Please see my response at 13:16. I think your post deserves its own response but my 13:16 point pretty much addresses your points.

And please stop with the sanctimonious BS. There isn't a single parent alive with children heading off to college who aren't thrilled for the opportunity to date, love freely and kick their romantic pursuits up a notch. [b]That is entirely different from hoping that your presence as a step-mother will make his children uncomfortable enough that they prefer the dorms to coming home during holidays Do you think their mom also hoped they wouldn't come visit very often?. He was looking forward to the empty nest as a married man. Exactly. His situation changed recently, from married man to new widower. It has nothing to do with wanting [b]his kids out of the way, as I included my own DS in that count. (3 kids includes mine.)[/b] Oh, OK, so you were also hoping that your DS would not feel comfortable coming home from the dorms very often. Again, that is very different from hoping that your stepchildren find the presence of a stepmother enough to render the dorms preferable to visiting home. I think we're lucky to blend our family Well, isn't that nice that you think this. You admitted that his girls don't think so, so I guess we've established that your wants and desires trump theirs at the time that they're ALL OFF AT COLLEGE and we can focus on US!!!!!

Ummm...Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

At no point did I ever say I hope they don't want to come home for the holidays.

Perhaps you should reread the post.

Then you should probably get out of your feelings about a situation you know very little about.

You cannot gauge the needs, wants, grief of this family without having met even one of them. You.Just.Can't.

My reading comprehension is fine. You wrote: "...like most college students they may become so absorbed with their own lives that they really won't care what their father and I do. Or who knows, having a stepmother move in may make dorm living look really good."

Where's the part about hoping they don't want to come home for the holidays?

And since you're reading comprehension's so great, please summarize the meaning of that particular section. What point was being made there? Perhaps copying and pasting the entire quote instead of picking and choosing will help.

I'll wait.

[Anonymous]

Here's how you proceed, OP: Don't Take Their Home. I seriously cannot believe you are contemplating that you would have their childhood home in the event that they lost their sole surviving parent.

You have your house. Rent it out and you can always move back into it later. But don't try to take their childhood home from them. It's cruel and heartless, and it will damage your marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OP:

Don't you think that this man's children should be prioritized in this situation? He's not thinking clearly, but YOU are not whipsawed by grief, so perhaps you should think about what would be best for his girls? How do you think he will feel about you, years from now, when he realizes that he harmed his relationship with his girls by moving ahead too quickly with you?

1. You acknowledge that his girls, who are grieving their not-long-dead mom, are disturbed by the situation. You wrote (about this man's daughters) that "they're not terribly excited about another woman entering the picture--much less the home." Yet you don't care. You want what you want, and you're not bothered by the way this may harm vulnerable young girls who are grieving their dead mother.

2. You acknowledge that your ideal situation would be that in which his girls all move out: You wrote: "Having all 3 away at college would be ideal." I pity these girls. They will never feel comfortable coming home for Thanksgiving or any other holiday.

3. You HOPE that your presence will make his girls too uncomfortable to return often to their home: you wrote: "...like most college students they may become so absorbed with their own lives that they really won't care what their father and I do. Or who knows, having a stepmother move in may make dorm living look really good."

4. You don't care about these girls. You want them gone so that you can move in and take over their dead mother's home.

5. The girls can perceive your feelings about them. They sense that you don't want them.

6. Some women could turn into a caring, supportive friend for these children. You, however, are going to cause them a lot of hurt.

Please see my response at 13:16. I think your post deserves its own response but my 13:16 point pretty much addresses your points.

And please stop with the sanctimonious BS. There isn't a single parent alive with children heading off to college who aren't thrilled for the opportunity to date, love freely and kick their romantic pursuits up a notch. [b]That is entirely different from hoping that your presence as a step-mother will make his children uncomfortable enough that they prefer the dorms to coming home during holidays Do you think their mom also hoped they wouldn't come visit very often?. He was looking forward to the empty nest as a married man. Exactly. His situation changed recently, from married man to new widower. It has nothing to do with wanting [b]his kids out of the way, as I included my own DS in that count. (3 kids includes mine.)[/b] Oh, OK, so you were also hoping that your DS would not feel comfortable coming home from the dorms very often. Again, that is very different from hoping that your stepchildren find the presence of a stepmother enough to render the dorms preferable to visiting home. I think we're lucky to blend our family Well, isn't that nice that you think this. You admitted that his girls don't think so, so I guess we've established that your wants and desires trump theirs at the time that they're ALL OFF AT COLLEGE and we can focus on US!!!!!

Ummm...Your reading comprehension skills leave much to be desired.

At no point did I ever say I hope they don't want to come home for the holidays.

Perhaps you should reread the post.

Then you should probably get out of your feelings about a situation you know very little about.

You cannot gauge the needs, wants, grief of this family without having met even one of them. You.Just.Can't.

If you feel this to be true, why did you post on a public form asking for advice about the "best way to blend this unique family"? It seems that you really don't want to ready any advice telling you that your plan is not the "best way" to blend the family.

The best way to blend from a financial standpoint.

Are you really daft or simply playing devil's advocate this morning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here--

First, thanks for all of the responses. Some really good practical ideas and other things to consider have been presented in this thread.

A few things:

1. My plan is to continue to date and not marry/move in for at least another year--likely two. I'm enjoying the freedom of my empty nest and strides I'm making in my career too much to dive head first into this. However, we both know what we want and where we're going with this.

2. I'm somewhat shocked to hear so many people say a year is too soon for him to move forward with another woman given that his in-laws have given him their blessings to do just that. Perhaps they saw how lonely he's been but his former wife's mother and brothers told him they were okay with it.

It's lovely that the in-laws don't mind, but they're not the ones who have to live with you. It may not be too soon for the man to move forward, but it is likely to be too soon for the children. They have their own grief and seeing their father dating will likely be very, very difficult for them.

I agree that it's lovely that the in-laws don't mind. But I think it's beyond lovely that they actually gave their explicit "consent" for him to move forward. While they don't have to live with me, they've spent a great deal of time with their my SO and grandchildren/neices to know whether or not the timing is appropriate.

Yes, there are many emotional factors involved in a situation like this, but SO and I are on top of those. It's the practical/unromantic/financial stuff that I haven't figured out.

I was surprised to read all of the "It's too soon!", "But the kids!" responses. While it is something to consider, you shouldn't act as if you know me, my SO or his girls better than I/we do!


Serious question: Just how long do you guys think you could go without companionship if your spouse died unexpectedly, suddenly leaving you alone to raise two teens?

Please don't judge until you've walked a mile in his shoes. You don't know the lonely nights he's faced suddenly sleeping in a bed alone every night after 20 years. Having no one to help co-parent two TEENAGED GIRLS (and you're a man!). Spending over a year consoling them but having no one to console you after they've gone to bed at night.

How long is he supposed to mourn?

Since you asked op, I'll tell you. He should have waited a year. He should have taken a year to grieve and mourn and adjust to the new reality of life without his wife. He should have focused on his kids, and given them time to do the same. They should have gone through Mother's Day, Father's Day, summer BBQ's, Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas as a family of three. He should have been lonely, that's okay. You can't get through grief by ignoring it and filling your time with a new relationship. If you don't grieve, you don't heal, and you bring that pain to the next relationship.

I've walked that mile, op, as the teenaged girl who lost her mom. Tread carefully here. You're already dating him, fine, but wait to move in. Frankly, I'd wait until he was ready to sell that house and start fresh in a new one with you. And if he's not there yet and it doesn't make sense because of the kids, then don't move in until it does.

Thank you for such a reasonable, tempered response.

He did wait a little over a year before we started dating. But even if he waited 6 months, that's his perogative.

It's just so funny to see all the posters come running out with their pitchforks screaming, "But it's too soon!" as if their anonymous opinions dipped in the ignorance of not knowing any of the parties would carry more weight than the dead wife's family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, his wife died suddenly only a year ago and he's ready for you to move in with him? Red flag right there.

+1 It sounds like he's trying to pick up where he left off with her. It's very sad, but he's not over her. He fell in love again way too soon.

+2

WTF

[Anonymous]

OP, what did you expect the wife's parents to say about it?
If they told him they were uncomfortable with the dating, it is very likely that the widower would distance himself--and the grandchildren--from them. Their daughter is dead. They are going to support the new widower in everything because their ties to the grandchildren could be precarious if they don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Since you asked op, I'll tell you. He should have waited a year. He should have taken a year to grieve and mourn and adjust to the new reality of life without his wife. He should have focused on his kids, and given them time to do the same. They should have gone through Mother's Day, Father's Day, summer BBQ's, Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas as a family of three. He should have been lonely, that's okay. You can't get through grief by ignoring it and filling your time with a new relationship. If you don't grieve, you don't heal, and you bring that pain to the next relationship.

I've walked that mile, op, as the teenaged girl who lost her mom. Tread carefully here. You're already dating him, fine, but wait to move in. Frankly, I'd wait until he was ready to sell that house and start fresh in a new one with you. And if he's not there yet and it doesn't make sense because of the kids, then don't move in until it does.

Thank you for such a reasonable, tempered response.

He did wait a little over a year before we started dating. But even if he waited 6 months, that's his perogative.

It's just so funny to see all the posters come running out with their pitchforks screaming, "But it's too soon!" as if their anonymous opinions dipped in the ignorance of not knowing any of the parties would carry more weight than the dead wife's family.

Oh my god. Sure, it's his prerogative to be an insensitive father who makes poor parenting decisions. But do you really want to move in to that situation?

Speaking of poor decisions, you said it was a little over a year that their mother passed away, and now it's a little over a year that you've been dating. So he's been dating you for like 5 minutes and already wants to get married? WTF? This is a bad, bad, bad idea. He is not making good decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here--

First, thanks for all of the responses. Some really good practical ideas and other things to consider have been presented in this thread.

A few things:

1. My plan is to continue to date and not marry/move in for at least another year--likely two. I'm enjoying the freedom of my empty nest and strides I'm making in my career too much to dive head first into this. However, we both know what we want and where we're going with this.

2. I'm somewhat shocked to hear so many people say a year is too soon for him to move forward with another woman given that his in-laws have given him
their blessings to do just that. Perhaps they saw how lonely he's been but his former wife's mother and brothers told him they were okay with it.

My spouse died 8 months ago and I cannot fathom dating anyone right now. At all. The thought of it is repugnant. Most men seem to move on more quickly, as the can't seem to be alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here--

First, thanks for all of the responses. Some really good practical ideas and other things to consider have been presented in this thread.

A few things:

1. My plan is to continue to date and not marry/move in for at least another year--likely two. I'm enjoying the freedom of my empty nest and strides I'm making in my career too much to dive head first into this. However, we both know what we want and where we're going with this.

2. I'm somewhat shocked to hear so many people say a year is too soon for him to move forward with another woman given that his in-laws have given him their blessings to do just that. Perhaps they saw how lonely he's been but his former wife's mother and brothers told him they were okay with it.

It's lovely that the in-laws don't mind, but they're not the ones who have to live with you. It may not be too soon for the man to move forward, but it is likely to be too soon for the children. They have their own grief and seeing their father dating will likely be very, very difficult for them.

I agree that it's lovely that the in-laws don't mind. But I think it's beyond lovely that they actually gave their explicit "consent" for him to move forward. While they don't have to live with me, they've spent a great deal of time with their my SO and grandchildren/neices to know whether or not the timing is appropriate.

Yes, there are many emotional factors involved in a situation like this, but SO and I are on top of those. It's the practical/unromantic/financial stuff that I haven't figured out.

I was surprised to read all of the "It's too soon!", "But the kids!" responses. While it is something to consider, you shouldn't act as if you know me, my SO or his girls better than I/we do!


Serious question: Just how long do you guys think you could go without companionship if your spouse died unexpectedly, suddenly leaving you alone to raise two teens?

Please don't judge until you've walked a mile in his shoes. You don't know the lonely nights he's faced suddenly sleeping in a bed alone every night after 20 years. Having no one to help co-parent two TEENAGED GIRLS (and you're a man!). Spending over a year consoling them but having no one to console you after they've gone to bed at night.

How long is he supposed to mourn?

Since you asked op, I'll tell you. He should have waited a year. He should have taken a year to grieve and mourn and adjust to the new reality of life without his wife. He should have focused on his kids, and given them time to do the same. They should have gone through Mother's Day, Father's Day, summer BBQ's, Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas as a family of three. He should have been lonely, that's okay. You can't get through grief by ignoring it and filling your time with a new relationship. If you don't grieve, you don't heal, and you bring that pain to the next relationship.

I've walked that mile, op, as the teenaged girl who lost her mom. Tread carefully here. You're already dating him, fine, but wait to move in. Frankly, I'd wait until he was ready to sell that house and start fresh in a new one with you. And if he's not there yet and it doesn't make sense because of the kids, then don't move in until it does.

Thank you for such a reasonable, tempered response.

He did wait a little over a year before we started dating. But even if he waited 6 months, that's his perogative.

It's just so funny to see all the posters come running out with their pitchforks screaming, "But it's too soon!" as if their anonymous opinions dipped in the ignorance of not knowing any of the parties would carry more weight than the dead wife's family.

TROLL FAIL. Reread your first post. His wife has only been dead little over a year...no way you've been dating 1 month and are ready to marry?!

Besides the fact that the whole conversation makes you sound like a gold digger. Protecting your assets my ass. More like taking his assets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, what did you expect the wife's parents to say about it?
If they told him they were uncomfortable with the dating, it is very likely that the widower would distance himself--and the grandchildren--from them. Their daughter is dead. They are going to support the new widower in everything because their ties to the grandchildren could be precarious if they don't.

Oh, and yes, this insight is based on my experience as a teen daughter whose mother died. Anecdotes from others ARE relevant to your situation. Consider them case studies, if you will; the mourning process is very well researched and oft-documented and explored in texts. You are very foolish to move into such a delicate situation and NOT attempt to understand what could go wrong and how to avoid it.

Because, you know, you might not get/keep that "palatial" home of his if you don't take the right approach! Priorities!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, what did you expect the wife's parents to say about it?
If they told him they were uncomfortable with the dating, it is very likely that the widower would distance himself--and the grandchildren--from them. Their daughter is dead. They are going to support the new widower in everything because their ties to the grandchildren could be precarious if they don't.

+1. It sounds like denial of grief is how this family operates. Nobody but the children can say whether they are ready.

This is going to blow up in your face, OP.