Is this appropriate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ forcing the end of OW's relationship could push OW and OP's DH together.

Yeah, no. That really isn't how these things usually go.

Also, OP, someone will now tell you that her boyfriend is abusive. Again, a standard canard.

Really, you need the BTDT people at SI.

I guess I just don't see the point. OP already said their relationship was in trouble, and it is a hell of a lot easier for the boyfriend to dump the "friend" once he gets confirmation on that. What is to gain by ending their relationship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thank you so much for all the advice. DH actually keeps saying to me - my friendship with Jane has nothing to do with our marriage problems...they are two separate things and I need to make him understand that to me these things do go together. [/quote

You're right, OP. Ask him if he can live without Jane in his life. I was once platonic friends with this guy, but I knew he wanted to be more than friends. He was a good guy but I was dating someone else I was more interested in. Eventually, this friend got married, had a kid, and guess what? He pretty much stopped talking to me, and I totally respect him for that. I'd never contact him again. His marriage and child are more important that keeping our friendship going. Sure, we could've stayed friends but he dropped it and I let it go. I have many other friends. So, I learned he could live without me, and he is. As I said, I have other friends. Your DH seems to have trouble with the idea of living without Jane and Jane has no dignity to keep their "friendship" or whatever the F it is, going. She's a s*t who is getting her ego stroked by encouraging a married man to pursue her and he's a wimp for not dealing with his issues a long time ago.

[Anonymous]

OP, isn't it telling that he won't choose you over his "friend"? Shouldn't you and your wishes come first? Shouldn't a man be willing to do anything for his wife and kids?

All you should have to do is say the situation makes you uncomfortable at this time, and that he needs to stop all contact with his "friend" so that you and he can work on your marriage. If he refuses, for whatever excuse, then you need to figure out what to do, because you don't come first in his life.

If the two of you go to a therapist, bring this choice up in front of the therapist. Any therapist would be telling him the same thing.

[Anonymous]

OP, time to put on your big girl pants and toughen up. Your DH and this woman are playing you, and you seem to be determined to try and keep him no matter the cost to your self-worth and sense of dignity. You need to call his bluff; see a lawyer, and let your DH know just what is in store for him if he continues this affair -- and it certainly IS an affair. You have to deal with him from a position of strength or he will continue to walk all over you the way he has been. You have gotten some good advice on this board; now use it. Be strong.

[Anonymous]

OP here - I need a little more advice please....We had our 3rd counseling session today. Yesterday, after I confronted DH with the Jan. phone bill and sent him articles on "emotional affairs"(thanks for DCUM for the advice), he finally came around and sent me a heartfelt apology and said he would cut off all contact. he was humiliated that i called up his "friend" that morning. At our session today, I went point by point through the phone bill, showing that he called her all the time - at night, on weekends, etc. and showing that he called her before and aftter our 1st session. He again apologized and said he would stop communication with her "for now." I said - you mean forever and he finally agreed to that. He also hemmed and hawed about whether or not it would be okay for him to respond quickly to an email or phone call if she contacted him. I said - no, do not respond. He wants to be able to write a brief response so as not to be rude. Counselor seemed to side with me. then I said, well, I will be getting the Feb. phone bill later today and I will need to discuss it. He said he can't discuss this anymore adn I need to agree to drop the topic of "Jane." I sort of agreed but now that I am home and have reviewed the Feb. phone bill, I am devasted again. It is even more calls than Jan which I suspected. But worse to me are the lengths of the calls and the timing. He called her before and after our 2nd session, which I thought was supposed to be a safe place for us to communicate. It is as if he is telling her immediately everything I said. He also called some real estate companies (maybe to sell our house)...Is he still gaslighting me?? He said in counseling again that she was only a platonic friend who was offering support. However, with so many calls, I just truly have a gut feeling that she was helping support him to leave me. What else could they possibly talk about for so many minutes? If you are a supportive friend, that takes a 10 min. call to say how are you doing? A mistress on the other hand would spend 45 minutes per day discussing the logistics of you leaving. Counselor told me privately that I may need to lay off if I want to save marraige and he has already agreed to cut things off with her but I still feel like he was not completely truthful (at all.)

[Anonymous]

Your counselor does not sound very good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - I need a little more advice please....We had our 3rd counseling session today. Yesterday, after I confronted DH with the Jan. phone bill and sent him articles on "emotional affairs"(thanks for DCUM for the advice), he finally came around and sent me a heartfelt apology and said he would cut off all contact. he was humiliated that i called up his "friend" that morning. At our session today, I went point by point through the phone bill, showing that he called her all the time - at night, on weekends, etc. and showing that he called her before and aftter our 1st session. He again apologized and said he would stop communication with her "for now." I said - you mean forever and he finally agreed to that. He also hemmed and hawed about whether or not it would be okay for him to respond quickly to an email or phone call if she contacted him. I said - no, do not respond. He wants to be able to write a brief response so as not to be rude. Counselor seemed to side with me. then I said, well, I will be getting the Feb. phone bill later today and I will need to discuss it. He said he can't discuss this anymore adn I need to agree to drop the topic of "Jane." I sort of agreed but now that I am home and have reviewed the Feb. phone bill, I am devasted again. It is even more calls than Jan which I suspected. But worse to me are the lengths of the calls and the timing. He called her before and after our 2nd session, which I thought was supposed to be a safe place for us to communicate. It is as if he is telling her immediately everything I said. He also called some real estate companies (maybe to sell our house)...Is he still gaslighting me?? He said in counseling again that she was only a platonic friend who was offering support. However, with so many calls, I just truly have a gut feeling that she was helping support him to leave me. What else could they possibly talk about for so many minutes? If you are a supportive friend, that takes a 10 min. call to say how are you doing? A mistress on the other hand would spend 45 minutes per day discussing the logistics of you leaving. Counselor told me privately that I may need to lay off if I want to save marraige and he has already agreed to cut things off with her but I still feel like he was not completely truthful (at all.)

Counselor thinks YOU should lay off? Really?

Look, when my DH was having an EA, I thought that I would just show him that I was a great wife. I did more; I worked harder. And you know what? That was the wrong approach.

He is in an affair fog (did you read up at SI about these things?) His grasp of reality is askew, and he isn't being rational or honest with you or with himself. You can't "nice" him out of that fog. You need to deal from a position of strength. I thought that sounded crazy at first, but then I realized that no one likes someone who is needy and clinging, and telling him you love him, etc. is needy on your part. You need to detach.

So. See a lawyer. Get ready for the roller coaster that is coming, because it has begun. Remember that the only person you can control in this process is you. So protect YOURSELF at all costs. Take care of yourself - eat, exercise, etc. Get a massage, mani - whatever you want. Be kind to yourself, because right now, your DH isn't being kind to you.

Stay calm. And make your ultimatum:

"I saw the February bill. I know that you talked to Jane even more last month than you did in January. You now have a choice to make, and I am giving you exactly one week to make that choice. I refuse to be in a marriage with three people, and you have placed Jane squarely in our marriage, taking away intimacy and attention that is due me as your wife. This is unacceptable. If you choose to stay married, you will write Jane an email cutting off all contact with her. You will start individual therapy as well as increasing our joint therapy sessions. You will examine what in your character let you think it would be okay to betray our family so terribly. If you decide that you will not end your inappropriate relationship with Jane, you will move out next week into a hotel and find an apartment to lease. I have already seen a lawyer, and your support payments under (jurisdiction) law will be approximately $___. You should plan accordingly. Right now I am offering your the gift of reconciliation. If you choose to reject that gift, that is on you, and you will have to live with the knowledge that you destroyed your family."

You must be strong, and you must communicate that strength nonstop now. It will be SO, SO HARD. I know that - believe. It was only when I told my DH that I no longer feared losing our marriage that he FINALLY became afraid.

[Anonymous]

Counselor told you to lay off? Time to dump your counselor. If you lay off your husband will continue this behavior as if nothing happened and take your silence as acceptance of what he's doing. In other words she's telling you to be a doormat. Absolutely not. He needs to know what he has to lose. I am still shaking my head about your counselor - if you can't air your grievances and explain why you are upset, feel betrayed etc etc...then what the hell is the point of therapy?

[Anonymous]

OP here...It is weird. He met with counselor by himself first. then at our first joint session, all he wanted to talk about was me and my issues, i.e., what he does not like about me. At the second session (before I knew anything about Jane still), I pushed back and really vented about him --- I explained why and how I thought he contributed to the marriage breakdown. i admitted my part completely and fully but he had and still has a very difficult time admitting that he is at fault, too. And now with the Jane thing, I am at my wit's end. For example, in session 2, he said I was "controlling" and claimed I called him every night if he was late coming home from work. Counselor agreed with him and said I can't call until he is 15 minutes late. I said - I don't do that...I call sometimes if there is bad weather mostly because I am worried about highway and accidents. The phone bills for both months showed that I was correct - I called him exactly 3 times on his commute home. He went on an on about how it is okay for him to be 15 - 30 minutes late because he can't control traffic and weather, which is obvious. However, the phone bills show that he would call Jane at 6 p.m. and talk for 45 minutes and thus he would get home late DUE TO HIM TALKING TO HER. This happened repeatedly in Jan and Feb. So, his main issue with me - that I am controlling - is not quite true...It is weird -- he told counselor I can't call him (2nd session) but now with the phone bills, I find out the true reason - he is chatting with her on his commute home and doesn't want to be disturbed. Also he would often not answer his phone and tell me he did not hear the ringer.

[Anonymous]

Honey, snap out of it. There is no rationalization here. Your husband is having an affair.

And get a new therapist. Doug Cohen in Georgetown is excellent with infidelity. Not all of them are, as you have already seen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here...It is weird. He met with counselor by himself first. then at our first joint session, all he wanted to talk about was me and my issues, i.e., what he does not like about me. At the second session (before I knew anything about Jane still), I pushed back and really vented about him --- I explained why and how I thought he contributed to the marriage breakdown. i admitted my part completely and fully but he had and still has a very difficult time admitting that he is at fault, too. And now with the Jane thing, I am at my wit's end. For example, in session 2, he said I was "controlling" and claimed I called him every night if he was late coming home from work. Counselor agreed with him and said I can't call until he is 15 minutes late. I said - I don't do that...I call sometimes if there is bad weather mostly because I am worried about highway and accidents. The phone bills for both months showed that I was correct - I called him exactly 3 times on his commute home. He went on an on about how it is okay for him to be 15 - 30 minutes late because he can't control traffic and weather, which is obvious. However, the phone bills show that he would call Jane at 6 p.m. and talk for 45 minutes and thus he would get home late DUE TO HIM TALKING TO HER. This happened repeatedly in Jan and Feb. So, his main issue with me - that I am controlling - is not quite true...It is weird -- he told counselor I can't call him (2nd session) but now with the phone bills, I find out the true reason - he is chatting with her on his commute home and doesn't want to be disturbed. Also he would often not answer his phone and tell me he did not hear the ringer.

Again with the gaslighting. Sounds like he is pretty deep into an affair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - I need a little more advice please....We had our 3rd counseling session today. Yesterday, after I confronted DH with the Jan. phone bill and sent him articles on "emotional affairs"(thanks for DCUM for the advice), he finally came around and sent me a heartfelt apology and said he would cut off all contact. he was humiliated that i called up his "friend" that morning. At our session today, I went point by point through the phone bill, showing that he called her all the time - at night, on weekends, etc. and showing that he called her before and aftter our 1st session. He again apologized and said he would stop communication with her "for now." I said - you mean forever and he finally agreed to that. He also hemmed and hawed about whether or not it would be okay for him to respond quickly to an email or phone call if she contacted him. I said - no, do not respond. He wants to be able to write a brief response so as not to be rude. Counselor seemed to side with me. then I said, well, I will be getting the Feb. phone bill later today and I will need to discuss it. He said he can't discuss this anymore adn I need to agree to drop the topic of "Jane." I sort of agreed but now that I am home and have reviewed the Feb. phone bill, I am devasted again. It is even more calls than Jan which I suspected. But worse to me are the lengths of the calls and the timing. He called her before and after our 2nd session, which I thought was supposed to be a safe place for us to communicate. It is as if he is telling her immediately everything I said. He also called some real estate companies (maybe to sell our house)...Is he still gaslighting me?? He said in counseling again that she was only a platonic friend who was offering support. However, with so many calls, I just truly have a gut feeling that she was helping support him to leave me. What else could they possibly talk about for so many minutes? If you are a supportive friend, that takes a 10 min. call to say how are you doing? A mistress on the other hand would spend 45 minutes per day discussing the logistics of you leaving. Counselor told me privately that I may need to lay off if I want to save marraige and he has already agreed to cut things off with her but I still feel like he was not completely truthful (at all.)

Counselor thinks YOU should lay off? Really?

Look, when my DH was having an EA, I thought that I would just show him that I was a great wife. I did more; I worked harder. And you know what? That was the wrong approach.

He is in an affair fog (did you read up at SI about these things?) His grasp of reality is askew, and he isn't being rational or honest with you or with himself. You can't "nice" him out of that fog. You need to deal from a position of strength. I thought that sounded crazy at first, but then I realized that no one likes someone who is needy and clinging, and telling him you love him, etc. is needy on your part. You need to detach.

So. See a lawyer. Get ready for the roller coaster that is coming, because it has begun. Remember that the only person you can control in this process is you. So protect YOURSELF at all costs. Take care of yourself - eat, exercise, etc. Get a massage, mani - whatever you want. Be kind to yourself, because right now, your DH isn't being kind to you.

Stay calm. And make your ultimatum:

"I saw the February bill. I know that you talked to Jane even more last month than you did in January. You now have a choice to make, and I am giving you exactly one week to make that choice. I refuse to be in a marriage with three people, and you have placed Jane squarely in our marriage, taking away intimacy and attention that is due me as your wife. This is unacceptable. If you choose to stay married, you will write Jane an email cutting off all contact with her. You will start individual therapy as well as increasing our joint therapy sessions. You will examine what in your character let you think it would be okay to betray our family so terribly. If you decide that you will not end your inappropriate relationship with Jane, you will move out next week into a hotel and find an apartment to lease. I have already seen a lawyer, and your support payments under (jurisdiction) law will be approximately $___. You should plan accordingly. Right now I am offering your the gift of reconciliation. If you choose to reject that gift, that is on you, and you will have to live with the knowledge that you destroyed your family."

You must be strong, and you must communicate that strength nonstop now. It will be SO, SO HARD. I know that - believe. It was only when I told my DH that I no longer feared losing our marriage that he FINALLY became afraid.

I agree with this poster. You need to be VERY direct and firm.

None of the going back and forth. You have the facts. You know that he is having an affair. Whether he denies it or not is now irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Op, it is not weird at all, it is typical cheating behavior. Take everyone's very good advice here.

And I very much doubt he will cut off contact with Jane-- they will just go deeper underground. Look at putting a VAR in his car, if you need proof.

[Anonymous]

He is shifting blame. If he can make you out to be controlling, then he just had to have an affair! He just had to talk to his friend! It's all your fault!

Do you even want to be married to this dickwad anymore?

[Anonymous]

OP here - he says they are platonic friends. I do believe him that this probably has not become physical. However, it is way too much phone contact. 45 minutes at least every other day. that is a LOT of talking. and that is just on the cell phone. I have no doubt they talk via regular work phone often too as they both work in the same city. he claims they only have met up in person at the Christmas party and for one lunch in Feb. I sort of have a hard time believing this.