Fair division of household responsibilities vs. income

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the expectations should be based on work hours, not income. Across the board, pay is not generally reflective of how long or hard you work, some industries just pay a lot more than others.

That said, as someone who earns about 70% more than my husband and feels the after work/dinner scramble, lower the weeknight cooking expectations so one of you can get it on the table fast. We do a lot of leftovers of meals cooked on the weekend, pasta once a week, frozen food once a week, breakfast for dinner, and so on.

+1. It should obviously be based on total work hours, unless 1 person chooses a very intense but low-paying job, which they shouldn’t do with kids. But both OP and her DH work similar hours. Even if a family has a SAHP, both parents need to contribute on evenings and weekends.

This is not living in reality. Should a surgeon who earns 900K with a pre-school teacher husband who earns 70K expect to do a 50/50 split of chores?

If the surgeon works more hours than the preschool teacher, no. If they work the same number of hours, yes. If the surgeon has a problem with it, he/she can invite the teacher to make homelife his/her job and support their spouse, or they can use their high earnings to outsource. They don’t get to demand a spouse maintain a full time job earning money outside the home PLUS do all the work of a housewife/SAHP. Pick one or the other.

I don’t know if this pp is dumb or naive. Real life doesn’t work that way.

I don’t know, it’s the way my life is - I make around $300k and my husband makes 10x that. I could quit but we essentially view my job is an insurance policy until we’ve hit our retirement savings goal, which is high. Since we’re both working similar hours, we both put in the same hours at home/with the kids. If/when I do quit, I will pick up much more but in the meantime, it’s about both of us working full time, not money earned.

Your husband makes $3M a year and yet you are working as much as he does for $300k as an “insurance policy”? Do you have anxiety or something?

No, we just have a very high savings goal for a variety of reasons (including expecting to support extended family in perpetuity) and if his job does blow up, which is pretty common in his industry, there’s no way he’ll ever make a similar income (realistically - obviously anything is possible). We both graduated into the financial crisis so I think that does make us more conservative than we’d otherwise be.

[Anonymous]

I actually think both parents should pitch in equally with the evening chores (dinner and bedtime) even if one of them is a SAHP, unless they are literally working during that time because of long hours, or unless the SAHP explicitly has more downtime during the day (for instance if their kids are older).

The idea that a working parent should be able to put their feet up and relax while the SAHP runs around preparing the meal and taking care of the kids reminds me of my upbringing, where my SAHM mom worked hard all day raising 4 kids while my dad went to work, and then when he came home at 5 he'd sit down in a chair and ask us kids to take off his shoes and bring him a beer, and he'd watch TV while the rest of us got dinner ready, and then after dinner he'd go back to watch TV. The attitude was deeply entitled and unengaged and communicated to all of us that he believed he was too important to be bothered. It was incredibly rude. Also, even though my mom didn't earn money, she did labor all day long. There is no reason he was more deserving of a break than she was.

In a situation like OP's, I think the same logic applies. If she is doing all or most of the work with kids in the morning and evening, when they both work about the same hours, her DH is being selfish and rude. Especially if he's WFH full time. He doesn't even have to change his hours, IMO, but he can't just sit around while OP is cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids. I can say from experience that this is messed up and that your kids notice and internalize "oh that parent is entitled to rest and relaxation, but that other parent has to do all the work." The idea that one parent "earned" a break by having higher compensated work doesn't make sense in a family context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think both parents should pitch in equally with the evening chores (dinner and bedtime) even if one of them is a SAHP, unless they are literally working during that time because of long hours, or unless the SAHP explicitly has more downtime during the day (for instance if their kids are older).

The idea that a working parent should be able to put their feet up and relax while the SAHP runs around preparing the meal and taking care of the kids reminds me of my upbringing, where my SAHM mom worked hard all day raising 4 kids while my dad went to work, and then when he came home at 5 he'd sit down in a chair and ask us kids to take off his shoes and bring him a beer, and he'd watch TV while the rest of us got dinner ready, and then after dinner he'd go back to watch TV. The attitude was deeply entitled and unengaged and communicated to all of us that he believed he was too important to be bothered. It was incredibly rude. Also, even though my mom didn't earn money, she did labor all day long. There is no reason he was more deserving of a break than she was.

In a situation like OP's, I think the same logic applies. If she is doing all or most of the work with kids in the morning and evening, when they both work about the same hours, her DH is being selfish and rude. Especially if he's WFH full time. He doesn't even have to change his hours, IMO, but he can't just sit around while OP is cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids. I can say from experience that this is messed up and that your kids notice and internalize "oh that parent is entitled to rest and relaxation, but that other parent has to do all the work." The idea that one parent "earned" a break by having higher compensated work doesn't make sense in a family context.

Your dad is an alcoholic, pp. He wasn’t helping make dinner because he was sitting on the couch getting quietly wasted every night.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You split it so everyone is working roughly the same, irrespective of earnings. I say that as the person who’s earned between 90 and 100 percent of the household income for many years. When I’m earning 100 percent of the income, as I am now, I don’t think I should get a pass in any household chores.

Generally, your viewpoint makes no sense. It's as if you read some dusty feminist political tract or women's studies text book that said all chores should be split equally 50/50 and due to an utter lack of understanding of basic economics, never questioned whether the mantra you regurgitate makes any sense.

If my spouse earns 100% of the income for the family and I earn none, then the spouses time is usually going to be far more valuably spent on economic activities. To the extent off time is used to relax and rejuvenate and continue to work the next day, then when we are talking about high earners certainly,I want the spouse to be well rested.

Frankly it is insane for high income spouses to be arguing over this stuff for silly political or feminist influenced reasons.

If you are good at making lots of money why on earth do you think your time is better spent doing menial household chores?

If you insist on spending hours per day doing extra work, stay in the damn office or WFH at your high paying job, thank you. If I am your zero earning spouse I will be more than happy to clean dishes and fold laundry since that is the best use of MY time. But if it is not I will try to spend my time doing something that is the best use of my time.

I am a man and a high earner, so I don’t really follow your point. I don’t make an hourly wage, and working more hours doesn’t necessarily make me more money. That’s how most high earner jobs go. You get paid for something other than hours worked. Nor do I really need more money.

But I don’t think my wife should do 100% of the house work. She certainly does most of it. But if I’m home and not working, I’m not going to sit with my feet up while she does all the house work.

It isn’t about using my time in the highest earning way possible. If that were the case, my wife would work too. It’s about having a nice home life, and that means no one relaxes until everyone does. And it teaches the kids to be contributors, too.

If you are truly a high earner why is your wife doing any housework? Just hire a full time housekeeper and your wife gets to do other stuff. Maybe work that earns money or maybe something else entirely.

"No one relaxes until everyone does"? Are you kidding me?

I have no idea what you do or how much money you make but you sound crazy. You can't be very good at what ever it is you do

No one relaxes until everyone does kind of makes sense for an evening routine. But since she finishes work before him, dinner is always on her.

No, it's the absolutely insane doctrinaire ultra rigid feminist inspired nonsense that suggests whoever wrote it hasn't actually tried it in real life. The kind of totalitarian political can't that destroys relationships.

If you really have a family and jobs then you would know that there are days, weeks, perhaps even months and years when one or the other parent will be immersed in a work project and unable to pitch in much if at all at home, or just too tired. The other spouse picked up the slack. That's obvious.

My wife.comes home from work one evening and is beat and needs to chill. She just wants to relax with a glass of wine before dinner. Oops it was her "turn" to make dinner? "No problem relax honey you look wiped out today, I got it.". That's what real couples who are not insane actually do.

Nope. "Honey it is your turn to cook dinner. I am folding laundry my assigned chore for today from the Fair Play cards Get off your backside and cook dinner. You are not allowed to rest until your chores are finished!"

Stop with the feminist fan fiction already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the expectations should be based on work hours, not income. Across the board, pay is not generally reflective of how long or hard you work, some industries just pay a lot more than others.

That said, as someone who earns about 70% more than my husband and feels the after work/dinner scramble, lower the weeknight cooking expectations so one of you can get it on the table fast. We do a lot of leftovers of meals cooked on the weekend, pasta once a week, frozen food once a week, breakfast for dinner, and so on.

+1. It should obviously be based on total work hours, unless 1 person chooses a very intense but low-paying job, which they shouldn’t do with kids. But both OP and her DH work similar hours. Even if a family has a SAHP, both parents need to contribute on evenings and weekends.

This is not living in reality. Should a surgeon who earns 900K with a pre-school teacher husband who earns 70K expect to do a 50/50 split of chores?

If the surgeon works more hours than the preschool teacher, no. If they work the same number of hours, yes. If the surgeon has a problem with it, he/she can invite the teacher to make homelife his/her job and support their spouse, or they can use their high earnings to outsource. They don’t get to demand a spouse maintain a full time job earning money outside the home PLUS do all the work of a housewife/SAHP. Pick one or the other.

I don’t know if this pp is dumb or naive. Real life doesn’t work that way.

I don’t know, it’s the way my life is - I make around $300k and my husband makes 10x that. I could quit but we essentially view my job is an insurance policy until we’ve hit our retirement savings goal, which is high. Since we’re both working similar hours, we both put in the same hours at home/with the kids. If/when I do quit, I will pick up much more but in the meantime, it’s about both of us working full time, not money earned.

You must be hot as hell because this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. If any of this is true, your husband is simply catering to your completely irrational whims.

With a $3,300,000 income NEITHER of you should be saddled with any significant household chores.

Whatever time your husband is wasting doing menial chores that could easily be hired out he could be spending on far more productive activities. That doesn't have to be more hours of his current job. It could be developing intellectual property. It could be researching the stock market or real estate market if you are active investors. Or it could just be relaxing and reading books in his field or figuring out ways to improve his efficiency so he has to spend less time working. Or it could just be listening to classical music, camping, or whatever it is that makes him want to keep earning those kinds of bucks.

You could easily hire help at $50/hour to do all household chores.

Your husband assuming he works a 60 hour week 50 weeks a year grosses $1,000/hr. After taxes say $500/hr.

The same applies to you of course. For you working is entirely optional and you make a very good buck.

No one could make $3,000,000/yr or $300,000 /yr.and be this dumb.

[Anonymous]

Basing family/household tasks on income in crazy.
My spouse makes double what I make and while I do more house stuff/kid stuff it’s because I have more free time. I am also more OCD about stuff so honestly it’s actually better for both of us if I do it.
OP your dinner situation sounds like you need to plan more ahead or just set lower expectations for yourself for now. There are lots of healthy nutritious options out there that might not be a traditional dinner but still work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the expectations should be based on work hours, not income. Across the board, pay is not generally reflective of how long or hard you work, some industries just pay a lot more than others.

That said, as someone who earns about 70% more than my husband and feels the after work/dinner scramble, lower the weeknight cooking expectations so one of you can get it on the table fast. We do a lot of leftovers of meals cooked on the weekend, pasta once a week, frozen food once a week, breakfast for dinner, and so on.

+1. It should obviously be based on total work hours, unless 1 person chooses a very intense but low-paying job, which they shouldn’t do with kids. But both OP and her DH work similar hours. Even if a family has a SAHP, both parents need to contribute on evenings and weekends.

This is not living in reality. Should a surgeon who earns 900K with a pre-school teacher husband who earns 70K expect to do a 50/50 split of chores?

If the surgeon works more hours than the preschool teacher, no. If they work the same number of hours, yes. If the surgeon has a problem with it, he/she can invite the teacher to make homelife his/her job and support their spouse, or they can use their high earnings to outsource. They don’t get to demand a spouse maintain a full time job earning money outside the home PLUS do all the work of a housewife/SAHP. Pick one or the other.

I don’t know if this pp is dumb or naive. Real life doesn’t work that way.

I don’t know, it’s the way my life is - I make around $300k and my husband makes 10x that. I could quit but we essentially view my job is an insurance policy until we’ve hit our retirement savings goal, which is high. Since we’re both working similar hours, we both put in the same hours at home/with the kids. If/when I do quit, I will pick up much more but in the meantime, it’s about both of us working full time, not money earned.

Your husband makes $3M a year and yet you are working as much as he does for $300k as an “insurance policy”? Do you have anxiety or something?

It's got to be fiction. No one with the chops to earn $3,000,000/ year is going to be so inefficient with their use of time that they would spend any significant amount of it on "household chores."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You split it so everyone is working roughly the same, irrespective of earnings. I say that as the person who’s earned between 90 and 100 percent of the household income for many years. When I’m earning 100 percent of the income, as I am now, I don’t think I should get a pass in any household chores.

I am woman who has earned 100% most of the years since having kids. You better believe working all those hours gets me out of many household chores. My DH and children agree.

Of course. I think a lot of the PPs who claim otherwise are just writing a lot of Fair Play fan fiction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basing family/household tasks on income in crazy.
My spouse makes double what I make and while I do more house stuff/kid stuff it’s because I have more free time. I am also more OCD about stuff so honestly it’s actually better for both of us if I do it.
OP your dinner situation sounds like you need to plan more ahead or just set lower expectations for yourself for now. There are lots of healthy nutritious options out there that might not be a traditional dinner but still work.

Serious question: have you or anyone else who asserts this kind of naive "equal time for chores" doctrine ever actually prepared objective time and motion type studies of who does what; how long it takes and how much time is spent; and efficiency in completion of tasks/ how long should these tasks be taking ? And logged this data over say 90 days to get an good sense of the averages over the course of multiple household chores cycles?

The answer is obviously "No." It's b.s. when you say you're OCD it really means you're very inefficient and waste a lot of time. You think you should get extra credit because you are an inefficient worker? Please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the expectations should be based on work hours, not income. Across the board, pay is not generally reflective of how long or hard you work, some industries just pay a lot more than others.

That said, as someone who earns about 70% more than my husband and feels the after work/dinner scramble, lower the weeknight cooking expectations so one of you can get it on the table fast. We do a lot of leftovers of meals cooked on the weekend, pasta once a week, frozen food once a week, breakfast for dinner, and so on.

+1. It should obviously be based on total work hours, unless 1 person chooses a very intense but low-paying job, which they shouldn’t do with kids. But both OP and her DH work similar hours. Even if a family has a SAHP, both parents need to contribute on evenings and weekends.

This is not living in reality. Should a surgeon who earns 900K with a pre-school teacher husband who earns 70K expect to do a 50/50 split of chores?

If the surgeon works more hours than the preschool teacher, no. If they work the same number of hours, yes. If the surgeon has a problem with it, he/she can invite the teacher to make homelife his/her job and support their spouse, or they can use their high earnings to outsource. They don’t get to demand a spouse maintain a full time job earning money outside the home PLUS do all the work of a housewife/SAHP. Pick one or the other.

I don’t know if this pp is dumb or naive. Real life doesn’t work that way.

I don’t know, it’s the way my life is - I make around $300k and my husband makes 10x that. I could quit but we essentially view my job is an insurance policy until we’ve hit our retirement savings goal, which is high. Since we’re both working similar hours, we both put in the same hours at home/with the kids. If/when I do quit, I will pick up much more but in the meantime, it’s about both of us working full time, not money earned.

Your husband makes $3M a year and yet you are working as much as he does for $300k as an “insurance policy”? Do you have anxiety or something?

It's got to be fiction. No one with the chops to earn $3,000,000/ year is going to be so inefficient with their use of time that they would spend any significant amount of it on "household chores."

Lol it’s true. Today he got up at 6 with the baby (let me sleep until toddler got up), just took the trash out and is currently unloading the dishwasher. I’m making breakfast and later taking kid to soccer and doing a run to the storage unit to drop off outgrown baby clothes I’ve packed up. Not sure that is “inefficient” it’s just life.

[Anonymous]

If someone is working more and earning more then of course the other person needs to do more at home (whoever said ‘shut that down’ is ridiculous). But op - unless your $100k job has societal importance and potential for significant growth then if there is a choice to be made about who does xyz then it practically has to be deprioritized.
You say your dh burned out. I am guessing that it took a huge toll on him to be the primary breadwinner for all that time because you didn’t like finance. Maybe he didn’t like it either but someone has to make money.
He prob feels like he didn’t quit a brutal situation to just have you fill the whole rest of the time he has when he’s not working with more stuff bc now he’s working less.
That being said he should still be doing a lot at that income level. I make $550-750 and I still do most of the kid stuff and house stuff. But if it’s crunch time and we have to choose someone to go do something with the kids then dh goes bc he makes $200 and so we must prioritize my job for practical reasons.
Basically split the chores when both off the clock, prioritize his job if there is thing to do during working hours and you both have meetings going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You split it so everyone is working roughly the same, irrespective of earnings. I say that as the person who’s earned between 90 and 100 percent of the household income for many years. When I’m earning 100 percent of the income, as I am now, I don’t think I should get a pass in any household chores.

I am woman who has earned 100% most of the years since having kids. You better believe working all those hours gets me out of many household chores. My DH and children agree.

You earning 100% means your husband is a stay at home parent. Obviously he does the chores in that case, because that’s his job. This post is talking about two people who BOTH work outside the home for income. So your situation is completely irrelevant.

That bolded assertion is ridiculous. Tons of spouses who earn 100% routinely shop for groceries, cook breakfast/dinner, clean up after meals, read to children, put them to bed, mow the lawn, put up the storm windows, clean the gutters, change the oil, wash the car, rake the leaves, drive to sports, give kids baths, you name it.

That doesn’t mean that it’s bad for the 100% earner to relax after work while the spouse scurries around. The SAH spouse has plenty of down time while the WOH spouse is commuting/working, particularly with kids in school all day.

So dollar earnings should have zero to do with chore splits — it should be all about trying to provide adequate free time to each spouse and dividing tasks equally during waking hours not earning pay other than the adequate free time.

First, anything related to parenting the children is not a household chore (so putting the kids to bed or giving them a bath is something a parent does regardless of their employment status).

Second, many people with SAH spouses CHOOSE to do some of the other chores you listed in their free time, and that’s great. However, it does not make it a ridiculous assertion that the expectation is for the spouse whose job it is to take care of the home (by staying at home) is the spouse who is default responsible for those things.

[Anonymous]

I think what the 'dh earns $3m' pp is not saying is that income is not salary. Virtually no one has a $3m salary. It's either that the dh is some kind of equity partner or is in tech where RSAs are in play or it's bonused or he has his own biz. All of which are not static and can easily fluctuate (no way has pp's dh made that income for more than 2-3y running) so the reality is that they aren't just saving bc they have 'ambitious retirement goals', they are saving and pp is still working bc the dh's income is not carved in stone. Our HHI is $750-$1m depending on year and we also do all our own chores for this reason. Once you are at high earning threshhold, until your net worth is at x and is x% liquid, you have to keep being frugal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You split it so everyone is working roughly the same, irrespective of earnings. I say that as the person who’s earned between 90 and 100 percent of the household income for many years. When I’m earning 100 percent of the income, as I am now, I don’t think I should get a pass in any household chores.

I am woman who has earned 100% most of the years since having kids. You better believe working all those hours gets me out of many household chores. My DH and children agree.

You earning 100% means your husband is a stay at home parent. Obviously he does the chores in that case, because that’s his job. This post is talking about two people who BOTH work outside the home for income. So your situation is completely irrelevant.

That bolded assertion is ridiculous. Tons of spouses who earn 100% routinely shop for groceries, cook breakfast/dinner, clean up after meals, read to children, put them to bed, mow the lawn, put up the storm windows, clean the gutters, change the oil, wash the car, rake the leaves, drive to sports, give kids baths, you name it.

That doesn’t mean that it’s bad for the 100% earner to relax after work while the spouse scurries around. The SAH spouse has plenty of down time while the WOH spouse is commuting/working, particularly with kids in school all day.

So dollar earnings should have zero to do with chore splits — it should be all about trying to provide adequate free time to each spouse and dividing tasks equally during waking hours not earning pay other than the adequate free time.

First, anything related to parenting the children is not a household chore (so putting the kids to bed or giving them a bath is something a parent does regardless of their employment status).

Second, many people with SAH spouses CHOOSE to do some of the other chores you listed in their free time, and that’s great. However, it does not make it a ridiculous assertion that the expectation is for the spouse whose job it is to take care of the home (by staying at home) is the spouse who is default responsible for those things.

What? Of course things related to parenting children are household chores. MOST of the chores are related to the children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the expectations should be based on work hours, not income. Across the board, pay is not generally reflective of how long or hard you work, some industries just pay a lot more than others.

That said, as someone who earns about 70% more than my husband and feels the after work/dinner scramble, lower the weeknight cooking expectations so one of you can get it on the table fast. We do a lot of leftovers of meals cooked on the weekend, pasta once a week, frozen food once a week, breakfast for dinner, and so on.

+1. It should obviously be based on total work hours, unless 1 person chooses a very intense but low-paying job, which they shouldn’t do with kids. But both OP and her DH work similar hours. Even if a family has a SAHP, both parents need to contribute on evenings and weekends.

This is not living in reality. Should a surgeon who earns 900K with a pre-school teacher husband who earns 70K expect to do a 50/50 split of chores?

If the surgeon works more hours than the preschool teacher, no. If they work the same number of hours, yes. If the surgeon has a problem with it, he/she can invite the teacher to make homelife his/her job and support their spouse, or they can use their high earnings to outsource. They don’t get to demand a spouse maintain a full time job earning money outside the home PLUS do all the work of a housewife/SAHP. Pick one or the other.

I don’t know if this pp is dumb or naive. Real life doesn’t work that way.

I don’t know, it’s the way my life is - I make around $300k and my husband makes 10x that. I could quit but we essentially view my job is an insurance policy until we’ve hit our retirement savings goal, which is high. Since we’re both working similar hours, we both put in the same hours at home/with the kids. If/when I do quit, I will pick up much more but in the meantime, it’s about both of us working full time, not money earned.

Your husband makes $3M a year and yet you are working as much as he does for $300k as an “insurance policy”? Do you have anxiety or something?

It's got to be fiction. No one with the chops to earn $3,000,000/ year is going to be so inefficient with their use of time that they would spend any significant amount of it on "household chores."

Are you not American? People don’t really have servants that wait on them like this in the US, no matter their income. It’s just not socially acceptable. Even billionaires do their own dishes and rake leaves.